craftsmanship, consumerism, virtue, privilege, and quality

I'm all for more trains! let's have 'em!

the fact that remy lives in a region where pineapples are not grown does not mean that the total emissions involved in getting him a pineapple is gonna be higher than something 'closer' that has a less efficient distribution path* / is going to create more emissions to begin with. pineapple from across the world vs. local beef.

across the board privileging of the 'local' is absurdist and simplistic. transportation costs should be incorporated into the math, they're just not as big as you'd assume ~in the big picture~, esp w/ enormous int'l shipments.

* (= people move to dense areas which will lead to inherent transportation efficiencies w/ basically everything they do or buy)

xp

this guy isn't a freakeconomics dude, he's an environmental/agriculture econ grad student at berkeley who happened to write an article that got posted on this

I have this vision of railroad commerce where each car has a catapult and as the train passes by a destination the catapults just shoot the produce at the station and giant nets catch it and the train never has to slow down and so much energy would be saved

There are a lot of bizarro things with transportation costs, subsidies, and supply chains that aren't worked out.

Let's take apples for instance. Parts of the midwest used to grow lots of apples for local consumption, but it's difficult to harvest, not as much of a cash crop as others, and other regions of the country have longer/different growing seasons that make apples more economically viable there. During a certain time of the year, apples in midwestern grocery stores are mostly local, but not in all chains and some varieties might be from distant areas.

If local agriculture was prioritized, there would be more local apple orchards, all the in-season apples in stores would be local, and the neighboring non-apple-growing regions could import them from neighboring states rather than California or Mexico. As it is, due to the contracts and distribution of the supply chain, it may be easier for a store in Illinois to buy apples from California than Nebraska, even in season.

Course since the train doesn't generally go to one's supermarket, it has to wind up on a truck eventually anyway.

http://www.goodplanet.info/eng/Zones/Agir/Bonnes-Pratiques/Monoprix-takes-the-train/(theme)/275/(secteur)/1197/

america should just invest in a giant, cross country pneumatic tube system

the fact that remy lives in a region where pineapples are not grown does not mean that the total emissions involved in getting him a pineapple is gonna be higher than something 'closer' that has a less efficient distribution path*

this is irrelevant. the article posted makes the assumption that if remy wants a local pineapple, the carbon emissions necessary to produce a pineapple locally will be greater than those from a pineapple imported from across the sea. However, if remy doesn't buy a pineapple, there are ZERO carbon emissions associated with his non-eating of said non-existent local pineapple. I raised this example to point out a key flaw in dude's assumptions.

pineapple from across the world vs. local beef.

this is an arbitrary and irrelevant comparison.

transportation costs should be incorporated into the math, they're just not as big as you'd assume ~in the big picture~, esp w/ enormous int'l shipments.

sure. but you're also acting like the ONLY argument for going local is an assumed reduction in carbon emissions from transportation, which is not the case. there are a number of other reasons to promote local food economies (genetic crop diversity, fewer and smaller outbreaks of food-borne diseases, a food supply not dependent on insane politics of far-flung regions, local control over the food supply re: pesticides, GMOs, etc.) There are a lot! It's not just some single-issue thing.

he's an environmental/agriculture econ grad student at berkeley who happened to write an article that got posted on this

I know some farmers, I know some agriculture professors, I know some chefs. they all disagree with this guy.

xp

I think ZS correctly pointed out somewhere upthread that to prepare for a future where transportation costs are going to be insane, it makes sense to invest in strengthening more local economies that are close to home. cuz when shit gets worse, those investments are going to become crucial.

well I guess if you *know some chefs* I just can't win this one

You can't win this one because your argument is terrible.

guys, lets not fight over pineapple

man in re: ashtrays upthread, if 100% of your ashtrays aren't stolen or thrift-stored u r 100% chump imo

and here i came to argue with that article

man in re: ashtrays upthread, if 100% of your ashtrays aren't stolen or thrift-stored u r 100% chump imo

what if all my ashtrays are made by my 4 yo out of clay

Where did the clay come from?

is your 4yo locally sourced xpGAH

idk I think iatee is arguing that, in the short term, and from a purely economics standpoint, there are situations where eating local is not necessarily gonna lead to lower emissions in that short timeframe.

but there are plenty of arguments for the 30 year view that say yes, we do need to build up local infrastructure and that while in the short term carbon emission may be higher in the long term it'll pay off

esp. once the polar ice caps melt and NYC is underwater and oh God I'm gonna go buy 10000 boxes of canned sardines right now

best ashtray = balled up piece of aluminum foil that is still covered in the grease from the chicken that laid on it the night before

lol I sucked ass at ceramics in high school and plus I was high a lot of the time so I couldn't really get my shit centered in any way. like not even to make the most basic vase. so when whatever I was trying to build collapsed after 45 minutes of struggle, I'd take a pencil and make 4 notches in it. there was a freshman kid who I was friendly with (I was a senior iirc) and by the end of the semester he'd be stopping by my wheel looking at the rising Grecian urn and he's say "this is going to be an ashtray right" and I'd think man they grow these kids smart these days

they probably mold them on a wheel

idk I think iatee is arguing that, in the short term, and from a purely economics standpoint, there are situations where eating local is not necessarily gonna lead to lower emissions in that short timeframe.

but there are plenty of arguments for the 30 year view that say yes, we do need to build up local infrastructure and that while in the short term carbon emission may be higher in the long term it'll pay off

esp. once the polar ice caps melt and NYC is underwater and oh God I'm gonna go buy 10000 boxes of canned sardines right now
--dayo

I don't think the ~let's be good consumers~ approach is very effective in the big picture, it just lets people in sf drive their cars to pick up a 'local apple' and feel like they're making a difference. it's always bay area ppl w/ this feel good consumer stuff but when measures to boost density or whatever come up they defend their sprawly wonderland. priorities!

someone should always be able to buy a pineapple. it'll be more expensive.

t's always bay area ppl w/ this feel good consumer stuff but when measures to boost density or whatever come up they defend their sprawly wonderland.

lol what is this strawmanning

this is my sustainable farming-obsessed academic buddy. he lives in Michigan

Michelle Obama is from Chicago iirc

I agree though, everybody should just buy less stuff, here's a protip, that pineapple is gonna taste 10x as good if you know that you can only eat it twice a year

like I remember how this board hipped me to alphonso mangoes, and man those are great mangoes, and why they are great is because you can only get them in may/june, and then you can't ever have them until next year, you might die before then! What an exciting mango

i dont even like pineapple all that much, tbh

when measures to boost density or whatever come up they defend their sprawly wonderland

also lol I have no idea what this is in reference to. people are always building shit in SF.

xp

I work next to some ridiculous condo developments that are like 100 stories tall

man iatee I've been avoiding this thread specifically so as not to beef with you but like...in the 1600s, one could not really have foreseen the impact of widespread literacy. but it's really a great thing that literacy took hold; little of what we hold dear would be possible if literacy hadn't caught on. shopping local now may not change things on any appreciable scale over the next one hundred or two hundred years, and no-one questions that other measures are needed to correct/offset/change the effects of human behavior on the environment/earth/humans-at-large. but the sideline-sitting "oh, this doesn't solve everything and some strawman thinks it does" pooh-poohing that goes on with literally every "what might people try?" effort is so depressing, cynical and disheartening. the long-term effects of a locally-first outlook might well be an entirely different world that we can't really even imagine from here. No, it can't be mapped out on a spreadsheet, but the effect of, you'll forgive me, thinking differently about things - even if the vehicle that gets people toward different thinking is ineffective/a panacea/less-than-ideal - is longer term than I think you have in mind, and of considerable value viewed through that lens.

xxxxxxp I like in the Little House books how the girls get one orange a year, at Christmas, and it's like an angel came down to the prairie (sustainably) and dropped them off, that's how good they taste.

i dont even like pineapple all that much, tbh

ban max imo btw

you want me to get really controversial?

hawaiian pizza is really good

I like in the Little House books how the girls get one orange a year, at Christmas

Very true of much of the West in the 19th century

you want me to get really controversial?

hawaiian pizza is really good

lol I can't front back when I ate meat I would straight up fight any motherfucker who hated on a hawaiian pizza

did 5 years for involuntary on a guy who seized up after he received my defense-of-hawaiian-pizza haymaker

ppl are so weird about it

I brought a pineapple to Reno just to save on carbon emissions

reminds me, I should poll if sweet + savory is an acceptable taste combo

haha, i try to stay on the sidelines of food polls, not that im successful, but i dont think i could deal with people who cant do sweet and savory togeth

meat+fruit is such a classic combo

that is the g.d. truth. been v into meat + plums experiments as of late. mmmm boy

sausage and peaches

I don't eat meat but sweet + savory is godlike! although I will fess up, in my meat days I was a "please don't put the sausage/bacon on the same plate with the pancakes" dude and I cannot get down with the idea of letting maple syrup infect the sausage/bacon though now it is a moot point

think you just threw down some gauntlets there - that is going to come back to haunt you when you are running for state office in 20 years, nobody is gonna elect somebody who was squeamish at the idea of a maple syrup crossover into the sausage/bacon compartment

god aero just when i think we have some common ground

I think we actually did this one once max! when I ate meat I really liked sausage and bacon a LOT. putting maple syrup on them for me would have been like dipping good sushi in tabasco.

yeah pork + maple = totally acceptable and not at all a crisis, what is your prob

you don't like put the syrup *on* the sausage, it just sorta oozes over and mixes in a little bit

aero do you not eat any BBQ sauce on any of your vegetarian foods?