"I don't think I should have the baby because I'm 13, I'm in a shelter and I can't get a job"

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automatically assuming Jeb Bush had something to do with it is kind of ridiculous

It is kind of the same line of reasoning as "Judge So-And-So wanted Terri Schiavo D-E-D dead!"

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 2 May 2005 17:44 (nineteen years ago) link

God, how awful.
Now there's going to be yet another 14-year-old girl with a baby she can't afford to feed, and I have a guess or two how far conservative sympathy for that baby will extend once it's been born.
I'm so angry my hands are shaking.

kirsten (kirsten), Monday, 2 May 2005 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link

it's illegal there to help a minor out of state to get an abortion. Since she herself is a ward of the state, wouldn't her child be one as well?

Miss Misery (thatgirl), Monday, 2 May 2005 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link

I said "Jeb Bush's administration," not the man himself. But OK, so it's a statute -- the statute is a product of the same ideology that undergirds all the rest of the Culture of Life bullshit. And the result of Culture of Life bullshit is a 13-year-old homeless girl being pressured not to have an abortion.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 May 2005 18:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Since she herself is a ward of the state, wouldn't her child be one as well?

I'm sure that's what Randall Terry would say.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 May 2005 18:40 (nineteen years ago) link

plan 1:

A: 1 in 34,000
B: 1 in 1


plan 2:

A: 1 in 10,000
B: 1 in 10,000(?)

A Nairn (moretap), Monday, 2 May 2005 18:43 (nineteen years ago) link

(and what A Nairn would say too, I guess)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 May 2005 18:45 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, the fetus is also a ward of the state.

Kids, this is not even about the culture of life bullshit, when you get right down to it, this is about how it's impossible to write laws for every scenario under the sun. The situation is fucking ridiculous; it never should have happened to begin with; and this is why statute law is a failure, period, because the world is too complicated to rule out ad hoc solutions to shit like this.

Imagine the discussion when writing up the bill in the first place, if you really think this is about the "Culture Of Life" and "Jeb Bush:"

"Wait! Wait! WHAT IF, and I say WHAT IF, an underage girl, who is unable to work and possibly mentally unsound, escapes from a state home and goes missing for a month and comes back pregnant with a child, which at her young age is more dangerous to bring to term than to abort? Shouldn't we include some guidance, some leeway, to allow for a termination of the pregnancy in such a case?"

Generally, state legislatures don't go to such extent except when tax breaks and district partitioning are concerned, so I think that associating all of this with rabid pro-lifers is going a bit overboard.

TOMBOT, Monday, 2 May 2005 18:46 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not seeing how this problem would exist without rabid pro-lifers.

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link

Which is to say that statute complications or whatever themselves wouldn't exist, on this issue anyway, if pro-lifers didn't exist. The kid would want an abortion, the kid would get an abortion. Nobody would have anything to say about it.

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 18:51 (nineteen years ago) link

This problem

apparently she has been denied the abortion due to a Florida statute that prohibits the state from consensting to abortion, sterlization or termination of life support

has been in existence in every state, I guarantee, for a long time. It has less to do with rabid pro-lifers, I also guarantee, than it does with the constitution, and the generally accepted view that it is incorrect for the state to impose any limits on human life and reproduction except in the case of convicted violent criminals.

I may be wrong, but to my mind the statue in question and the fundamental basis for it speaks more to the principles that keep us from forcing women who are interred in prison on lengthy sentences to submit to any form of birth control, even when they are allowed conjugal visitation, and are designed to avoid any legislation or act of jurisprudence which could lead our state down some kind of notional slippery slope that ends in THX-1138.

The state cannot legislatively decide to terminate the unborn. It is probably true that this problem would not exist if not for some pro-life sentiments regarding the definition of a human being under the law, though.

TOMBOT, Monday, 2 May 2005 18:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Nice subtle transition to making the adjective "rabid" part of the definition of "pro-lifer" there, Dan.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 2 May 2005 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link

I did it first, though

TOMBOT, Monday, 2 May 2005 19:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Your past few posts have contained the phrase "rabid pro-lifers" where there is a clearly defined subset of pro-lifers who are rabid. Dan, in his second post, wrapped them all up into one rabid package.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:02 (nineteen years ago) link

You're appealing to various established facets of the law, tom, while complaining that there are too many; and I'm trying to say that abortion in particular is over-legislated. So, yeah.

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 19:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Dan, get one rhetorical sensability.

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 19:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Get one precise argument.

The Ghost of Back Atcha (Dan Perry), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:10 (nineteen years ago) link

but it's all about obfuscation!

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 19:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Well it's not like I have anything to say other than what should be obvious to anyone. It doesn't matter that a state can't consent to abortion or sterilization, because no woman of any age should have to get the permission of a ward of any kind, state or parental, in order to have an abortion.

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 19:18 (nineteen years ago) link

For those who don't read links, I should note that the second article says the ban is temporary while the child is given a psychological examination to determine if the abortion would harm her mentally.

Miss Misery (thatgirl), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link

She's already 13 weeks in (or is it 14 now?).


"Temporary"; okay?

Dan I., Monday, 2 May 2005 19:23 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't find anything in the coverage that gives more details of this statute, so if anyone can find more background that would be nice. It may be that it just sort of happens to exist and had nothing to do with pro-life lobbying. But it's hardly unreasonable to suppose the contrary. Most places you find restrictions of any kind on abortion, it's because of pro-life lobbying. (As in, e.g., the restrictions the U.S. puts on its foreign social aid.)

It may also be that Jeb Bush's social services department is just being extremely diligent in following the letter of this law that just happens to exist, and that the ideology of abortion doesn't enter into the equation. It may be. Uh-huh. Yup.

x-post: The kid was already evaluted! She had counseling! She said she wanted to have an abortion. The state stopped her (at least temporarily).

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:26 (nineteen years ago) link

(evaluAted, right)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Kids, this is not even about the culture of life bullshit, when you get right down to it, this is about how it's impossible to write laws for every scenario under the sun. The situation is fucking ridiculous; it never should have happened to begin with; and this is why statute law is a failure, period, because the world is too complicated to rule out ad hoc solutions to shit like this.

and herein lies the problem not only w/ this scenario, but also w/ judicial and administrative decisionmaking in general. that is, statutes are often (but not always) vaguely worded or phrased, or for whatever other reason simply do not cover any and every situation. so these things end up in a court or an administrative agency, where a judge or administrative agent has to make a decision based upon these same vague, under-inclusive laws. it is PRECISELY here that the political right (NOT JUST the religious right!) goes into conniptions and starts screaming about "judicial tyranny" when the judges HAVE to make decisions (and decide in ways that the right-wing does not like).

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:30 (nineteen years ago) link

Except that I don't think a law saying the state specifically can't consent to abortions is just some kind of accident.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Except that I don't think a law saying the state specifically can't consent to abortions is just some kind of accident.

you are correct. we really should look at this statute though.

at the very least, its constitutionality is suspect.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 2 May 2005 19:50 (nineteen years ago) link

The case seems to be resolved. Florida Butts Out (For Once)

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:43 (nineteen years ago) link

hooray! back to the runaway bride and the bipolar meltdown sweepstakes.

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 20:55 (nineteen years ago) link

"It's a tragedy that a 13-year-old child would be in a vulnerable position where she could be made pregnant and it's a tragedy that her baby will be lost," Jeb Bush said on Tuesday.

By 'vulnerable' you mean on her back then?

Jimmy Mod Knows You Eat Your Own Farts (ModJ), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:08 (nineteen years ago) link

By 'vulnerable' you mean on her back then?

Shit, a girl who can express herself as well as she did likes to be on top.

Too far?

rocknrolldetox (rocknrolldetox), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:18 (nineteen years ago) link

No, I suppourt that...

Jimmy Mod Knows You Eat Your Own Farts (ModJ), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:20 (nineteen years ago) link

"Since you guys are supposedly here for the best interest of me, then wouldn't you all look at that fact that it'd be more dangerous for me to have the baby than to have an abortion?" she asked. Alvarez called that "a good point."

i imagine the judge rubbing his chin thoughtfully.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:21 (nineteen years ago) link

well at least florida's batting 0 for 2 and articles are identifying these as personal rights issues instead of culture of life/death crusades.

lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:52 (nineteen years ago) link


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