The Smiths: Classic or Dud?

However it's clear that Kulkarni is as bigoted and stupid as those he trashes. The comments on 'Panic' make that plain enough.

Anyway, one of the greatest bands ever, definitely. And no, I am not some pasty-faced wussy who will cry when Morrissey is insulted either!

Of course, their best song is "This Night Has Opened My Eyes", but that wasn't the question. Morrissey's voice is certainly a matter of taste, as he's one of the few in the genre who consistently sings on pitch (first album aside). I find a lot of his lyrics alternately hilarious and devastating, even on songs I don't particularly like (see "Girlfriend In A Coma", which may be the most inappropriate song he ever approached outside of "Bengali In Platforms"). As A solo artist, Morrissey is a screaming failure, but as part of The Smiths he managed to create some breath-taking stuff that I'll never let go of.

Sadly, Morrissey does have a punchable face.

Where does everyone get the idea that Smiths fans have to cry when you tell them Mozzer is crap?

But yes Tim I just don't know what the big deal is about Marr...the guitars just don't really stand out, they're there and they're not. And if you really want to know: my favorite guitar players are J Mascis and Kevin Shields.

2. But Dr C is of course quite correct: Marr was (let's leave the present out of it) utterly outstanding, spellbinding and inspirational. At an extraordinarily young age he had perfect facility with the guitar: and he developed a signature sound he was unafraid to play on extensively (I mean, he played the same way on lots of records - rightly), while also pushing the envelope and trying out different things. Examples: his interest in acoustic and folk playing; his piano playing on 'Shakespeare's Sister' or 'Asleep'; his sonic wizardry on 'How Soon Is Now?' and 'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore', which was eventually enough even to win over the really avant-garde people who are usually interested in bleeps, strange noises, textures, dripping taps, trains etc. Despite his virtuosity, though, he didn't play the Virtuoso, didn't 'go out there and go wild on six strings', as he put it to Melody Maker in 1989: he was content to be an accompanist, to play for the song and not for himself. And to talk about his *playing* this way is perhaps to understate his achievement as a *writer*, as the man who wrote, so to speak, half of one of the very greatest canons of songs in pop history.

I have made all that sound duller than it is. It's the reverse of dull: it's maybe the most exciting thing that ever happened, anywhere.

3. Funnily enough, I don't quite agree with what Dr C (?) said about the difficulty of playing Marr's songs. OK, it's pretty much impossible to play them *like he does*, but I guess that goes for any great musician. The basic structures, chords, rhythms, arpeggios, riffs, etc are not so hard to pick up.

Anyway, I read that Neil Kulkarni Cigarettes & Alcohol article, and I have a question. Is the "lads" culture that allegedly surrounds that music really *that* pervasive in the UK, or is Kulkarni just dealing in hyperbole ? If it is, then it's pretty amusing, 'cause over here, most of the people who would be aware that that music even exists would be anglophile fops and music geeks, pretty much lads' cultural opposites. I might make fun of England a lot, but I don't think I'd mind living someplace where the local equivalent of frat boys are into Pulp rather than Limp Bizkit.

"Is the "lads" culture that allegedly surrounds that music really *that* pervasive in the UK,

Five years ago it was, but less so now.

or is Kulkarni just dealing in hyperbole?"

I agree with pretty much everything he says about its malign cultural influence in the UK, but it's a soft and easy target by now. If he'd written that in 1996, though, it would have seemed much more relevant (and would have been seen in certain circles as almost blasphemous).

Kulkarni's a much-underrated writer, and his musical universe was far wider than any writers on the specialist hip-hop press (where some of the more narrow-minded indie kids would demand he fucked off to) - I remember in his euphoric review of The Brotherhood's "Elementalz" he alluded to Richard Thompson and Kevin Ayers, which might be seen as a refusal of the retro-orthodoxy of '96 and as a statement in favour of a completely different kind of "canon" (sort of what Ultramarine were working towards a few years before). That said, Tom, you're right; he has his hobby-horses and there are times when he goes too far, and I'd agree with you entirely that, if I want to hear a beat after I've been listening to The Smiths / Morrissey, I'll put on a dance or hip- hop record. I wouldn't want to hear them trying; that's not what they're there for.

Oh, and the answer to the question? Very similar to Tom's; despite everything, classic.

I understand criticism of the pretension that runs rampant through many of their songs, but the music up until _Strangeways, Here We Come_ is mostly impeccable.

Oh my, Dr.C don't say it's true :( Alas, even it were true, if something is easy to do it doens't necessarely make it less brilliant (jeez, did we go through punk for this!). Now although I've heard a lot of The Smiths, one eventually will come up with one track that I don't know on which St. Marr plays really loud.

And luckely I'm cool too in Nick's worldview, somewhere burried deep in my collection is "The Queen is Dead" (yes I really tried ;). Then again try to remember that 99.9% of the worldpopulation that don't own a stupid record by The Smiths are wankers.

Pinefox has expressed this far better than I can, and I agree with all he has said.

The fact that the guitar doesn't scream on every song doesn't mean that it isn't there or that its presence isn't felt. I mean, "Back To The Old House" without the guitar would be worthless. "Rubber Ring" would be nothing. No one would have remembered "How Soon Is Now?" As Morrissey's solo career shows, there was a synergy going on there that produced some amazing music.

if the smiths really are as obscure around your parts as you suggest (you've only met *one* fan?) you've certainly taken great pains to study a band that doesn't interest you.

As for the Korn connection, Tom gave a very clear response. There's a kind of narcissistic self-loathing with that singer that somehow reminds me of Mozzer, although instead of a hearing-aid he has a bagpipe and really crap hair (I'm almost certain that if you ask him he'll say 'The Queen is Dead'is one of his favorite albums). Actually Reynolds made a far bolder claim recently by comparing Eminem and Moz. He's right by the way.

I have sometimes spent the night at Stephen Troussé's house.

And I did always like the Moz interview -- I also really liked the amusing bit at the beginning regarding how lyrics come up with in a semi-drunken haze get taken as tablets of truth by fans. So true, so true!

Anyway, you could say "nobody can play those songs quite like Hendrix played them, but the basic chords, arpeggios, etc. are easy". You could apply that to any great guitar player cause a guitar is a guitar and rock music is rock music. Anybody can learn the notes too and get 90% of the way there, but its that last little bit that seperates guys who can finger chords well from guys like Marr and Hendrix.

Btw, yes, my dad likes eggs. What's your point?

THE VERY BEST OF THE SMITHS: CLASSIC *AND* DUD??

The cover - how long did it take them to come up with Charles Hawtrey? It's lazy,dull-witted hackwork.

Okay, from 1983 - 1987 I probably had the biggest case of Smithsitis in North America. I hounded the staff of a now-defunct record store in my hometown to drive me 500 miles to see them in Chicago - they complied. I bought everything I could lay my hands on, had people make me PAL- converted videotapes of all TV stuff from the UK and augmented my film and reading lists with every single piece of Angry Young Man filmmaking and writing available to me - in many ways, this 'bands with a syllabus' thing was the Manics' province in the '90s, but it was a great ladder upstairs to places like university, especially for a lot of people who were not from comfortable backgrounds (I'd do you a great big list of European, UK and US musicians and writers but I'd be here a while). There was also a huge radical feminism component to Morrissey, which sat well with the stuff he liked oustide the kitchen sink canon. He also linked me up to Kenneth Anger, Truman Capote, Warhol everything, Derek Jarman, other Manchester bands and oddly enough, this brought me eventually to House music.

To sing (in weird half-step vocals that people like Ofra Haza would later drop into the charts) that the music on the radio had nothing to say to him about his life in 1986 was pretty spot-on considering what actually played on daytime R1 in the days before Detroit and Chicago impacted on the British charts and before the invention of MIDI. How this made a Tamla-Motown lover a racist in the eyes of the press I'll never know (it's borderline reductive to say this, but I'd never be so facile as to call my black friends who only listen to hip-hop racists because of the music they're into).And as much as he hated his one remix, at least it was by François Kervorkian!

People I know now, such as the gay A&R who signed the Smiths to EMI, agreed with me when I posited the theory that Morrissey was one of those closet cases who fancied, but never touched, the men most likely to bash him: beery lads, Latino boys, skinheads, etc. This has become more pronounced the older he's become. If you look at the reccurring fascination for those styles in the fashion world, it's also down to ageing gay creatives literally flirting with dodginess...

Since you guys are dropping Reynolds science to justify your own C or D arguments, I should maybe remind you of something he wrote for Spin in the late '80s. It was about the concept of the pernicious influence, the group a band loves that doesn't let them move forward if they try to emulate them. I seem to recall Smiths being top of the list!

And Johnny Marr? Although he's partially responsible for Oasis being here now (legs-up, same management, yucch) he made the guitar cool in the face of my favourite synth stuff simply because he played it beautifully and never once went for the cheap cock-rock option!

As fer the last stereotype -- when I was an undergrad (early- to mid- nineties), the IT guy where I worked was a big-time metalhead -- though he liked a lot of eighties cheesy hair-metal as well as the good stuff. Big strapping country boy from the mountains of Pennsylvania, even had a pick-up truck. The only alternative/indie/whatever band he liked was the Smiths. Go figure.

He's a British indie guy of a certain age, of course he has weird hairdos.

Does he, particularly?

I mean ... I'd be impressed with myself if I had *hair* at "a certain age".

Marr was the ideal straight boy whom his best friend crushes on.

Has anyone read his memoir?

xp one might even say the platonic ideal.

and may even return the devotion with a hand holding or kiss or three

I listened to his memoir on audiobook, as read by ... Johnny Marr! It was totally worth it. His refusal to throw Morrissey under the bus is kind of deep. And I will never understand why people take Oasis seriously. But I highly recommend it for every other reason (and maybe even for those).

Cool! Have you also liistened to Lol Tolhust's memoir, as read by ... Lol Tolhurst?

How about Bob Dylan's memoir, as read by ... Sean Penn?

Pete Townshend reading his.

Bits where you hear he's not taking things quite as seriously as the printed word seems.

Morrissey's memoir is read by the actor David Morrissey, which I hope is a nod to Spinal Tap.

Maybe Johnny could read Andrew Marr's memoirs when they're published.

This came up this last weekend on the baseball thread and wanted to share:

joe panik

― mookieproof, Friday, May 20, 2022 7:19 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Hang the DJ.

― clemenza, Friday, May 20, 2022 9:53 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

That double pay in Game 7 of the 2014 World Series will live for infinity for us Giant fans. Good luck in life Joe.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 3:32 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Panik on the street's of London...

I was a pretty big Smiths fan and even saw them three times but always hated that song. Yes, they were bonkers live, an experience of a lifetime.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 4:24 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

this remains one of the better fielding plays i've ever seen

― mookieproof, Friday, May 20, 2022 4:27 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

That was an outstanding play, I have never seen that before. He's was a great second baseman but his bat only lasted like rwo seasons. The Giants had to move on.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 4:48 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

The only Smiths song I love!

― clemenza, Friday, May 20, 2022 5:54 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

(I believe he played in Toronto for six or seven minutes.)

― clemenza, Friday, May 20, 2022 5:54 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ya they got a decent return for him too iirc - Dickerson and Cimber

― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, May 20, 2022 5:59 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

i've been watching a dickerson this year. he got yepez'd

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Friday, May 20, 2022 6:01 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

The only Smiths song I love!
Tastes, huh. To me it was the first song where it was the Smiths by the numbers. No originality to it and he is being a huge dick (with those lyrics). This was the same band that did brilliant songs like "Still Ill" and "The Queen is Dead?" No wonder they broke up, garbage.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 6:25 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

retire, morrissey

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Friday, May 20, 2022 6:28 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

he played about 20 miles away from me last weekend in Pasadena for two nights via Cruel World. Yes, he needs to go away.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 6:32 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Bottom line is that I hate "Panic" in its paint by the numbers way mostly, best thing about that song is that it only lasts two minutes.

They were lightning in a bottle. My own personal experience, they were the band that spoke most directly to me at that particular time in my life (I was 18 when the first album came out). The Morrissey/Marr tension was what really made it work, and of course was also what made it all implode. None of them, including Moz, has done anything as great since the breakup, and now Moz and his big fucking mouth have come perilously close to trashing the legacy of one of the great bands of the age.

One thing, as noted several times upthread the rhythm section did not get nearly enough love. I still remember being joyfully astonished when I saw Sinead on her first U.S. tour and they were in her band.

Recently listened to some Smiths and the bass lines have an amazing musicality that you just don't hear that often.

Was a massive fan but it's not just Morrissey having a "big fucking mouth" - many of his current opinions are abhorrent.

Oh, no doubt, but with Morrissey you're never quite sure whether he really means what he says. I remember him saying all kinds of provocative shit back in the day, although, in the current context, I suppose that's irrelevant.