DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

in the same way that boxing day is now a pitiful parade of cunts that are desperate to get back inside a shop because they've been deprived for 24 hours.

yes because tescos is the only place people would want to shop.

really don't understand this smug "I am able to do my shopping on Saturday and have a nice relaxing sunday without any problem so everyone else should be forced to as well" paternalism

working time regs are a whole different thing, and there are better ways to handle those problems than saying "mandatory down tools at 4pm on Sundays"

there are but extending working hours historically has not handled those problems. and like i said, shopping on Saturday or any other day of the week isn't so big a deal when supermarkets open 24 hours a day. i don't think i'm being smug defending the idea that sometimes commerce can fuck off.

i had no problem working sundays back when i worked in shops, but they had to pay me double rate to do it. i'm guessing shops don't do that anymore? PROGRESS!!

If you just want restricated trading on Sunday as part of some "chavs with their consumerism shop too much anyway lol" and "down with shops" drive that's about as persuasive to me as the religious argument.

and like I said, it's not like supermarkets are the only kind of shopping. simply because it's not such a big deal for you to be able to get to the other kinds of shops on Saturday or weeknights doesn't mean everyone has your life, ffs.

stet, of all the people on this board i'm about the least likely to use some kind of chav argument.

i can see that people might be restricted to only sundays as a chance to shop, but it seems increasingly unlikely given the other opportunities that are available now. you could just as easily argue that some people only get to shop at 3 in the morning, and there isn't much open then either.

even as an irreligious person i think there's something to be said for one day in the week when the pace and focus of life changes, even slightly. same applies to holidays - they have a "religious" origin but they've always been more about a way of breaking out of regulated time.

and at the same time yes i think people shd be free to conduct their business when they want to. but large shop chains aren't people.

i might have been misreading your boxing day quip then, sorry.

i also think there's something to be said for a day of the week like you say, but i don't think it needs to be a state-ordained day that's the same for everyone.

I also don't believe that forcing large shops to close makes the least bit of difference - Sunday in Scotland has pretty much the same vibe it does in England, except you can also get stuff done if you need to.

(Where it does maybe make a difference is it feels like it makes Saturday high street shopping in England way more manic/unpleasant.)

there's something in that, yes.

i'm way too hungover to google this apparently but i'm sure i remember reading that when the sunday trading law changed to its current incarnation a lot of shop staff were basically forced to incorporate it into their working week without the traditional double time. the opening hours don't dictate that this happens, obviously, but it seems to follow as an inevitable consequence.

I agree with NV here - given that most shops close somewhere between 5 and 7 on a Saturday *anyway*, who are these people that can only do their shopping in that one-to-three hour window on a Sunday anyway? Not saying they don't exist but I doubt they exist in massive numbers.

Regardless of whether they originate from religion, I think there *are* societal benefits to days where people are encouraged to slow down, rest, spend time with their families, whatever. They're pretty eroded as it is, and I'm pretty sure the government isn't that fussed about making people work much longer hours anyway, especially poor people.

otoh, don't wanna side with these guys

http://www.facebook.com/pages/THE-SUNDAY-LAW-WILL-BE-ENFORCED-WORLDWIDE/375827316007

who are these people that can only do their shopping in that one-to-three hour window on a Sunday anyway? Not saying they don't exist but I doubt they exist in massive numbers.

anyone who works six days a week? or has a saturday job and weekday commitments? or a weekday job and saturday commitments? or religious people whose day of rest is a Saturday? Or, y'know, loads of people essentially. it's still not a positive argument for the sunday trading laws, anyway.

I think there *are* societal benefits to days where people are encouraged to slow down, rest, spend time with their families, whatever.

That may be, but Sunday trading laws don't achieve those things. Some Scottish islands shut down p. much entirely on Sundays and they're not idylls of close-knit family life, nor are they havens of restful existence. They're just shitty places to be on Sundays.

(Ignoring too that shopping is how some families slow down, rest and spend time with one another, for better or worse)

Thing is:

Peope have only so much to spend on their shopping.

If shop is only open Saturday, everyone goes then.

If shop open Sat&Sun, some people go Sat, some go Sun. It doesn't mean the shops get more revenue.

That's why they don't want to pay more to staff. (It's not the only reason, obv).

mm, it's weird, in the town where I live people often complain that cafés all seem to shut at 5/6, so if you want to go out and meet someone or w/e there's no option but the pub, but every time a café decides to change its hours and stay open late it gets so little traffic that it gives up after about a month.

Small shops are allowed to be open all day Sunday, right? but plenty don't because there's not the demand.

I think there *are* societal benefits to days where people are encouraged to slow down, rest, spend time with their families, whatever.

possibly but (1) i don't see any evidence that sunday trading laws do this (2) is "encouraging people to slow down" really a matter for the law? the job of government?

the avenue which i live off is a shopping street, lots of small independent businesses plus a Tesco and a Sainsbury overpriced convenience store. i think maybe a quarter of the indies open on a sunday.

xp

as i say i don't think the law shd tell people when they can open their shop but there has been an eating into people's leisure time as a result of sunday opening. we legislate for bank holidays so i don't think an enforced day of rest is ethically much different.

but there has been an eating into people's leisure time as a result of sunday opening

depends on the people. there's totally been an eating into my leisure time as a result of not being able to go shopping on Sunday evenings like I used to.

(Conversely, when I worked in a shop, being able to pull a double on Sundays was a major win when I needed extra cash. On both sides of the deal I am pro-Sunday opening)

haha we have a fan https://twitter.com/#!/challopz/status/181700096734400512

kudos, they got a butthurt indie jab in about M People too

I realised today why I've been subconsciously avoiding the news these last few weeks. Man... I'm depressed.

i had no problem working sundays back when i worked in shops, but they had to pay me double rate to do it. i'm guessing shops don't do that anymore? PROGRESS!!

― brokering (pimping) (stevie), Monday, 19 March 2012 09:05 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol as a tesco employee @ double pay. i dont even get that for overtime or bank holidays.

(seriously, the union or whoever is so shit at its job. i used to work for tesco 9 years ago and we got double pay overtime/time and a half sundays/sick pay and now all of that has gone.)

let people have the fucking half day off from being consumers or fucking zombie shop workers. it is not going to help do a fucking lick of good to the economy in the long run except beat down the working mans soul and hurt small businesses even more (corner shops will still be open till 10).

---

can i just say i don't understand the 50p tax rate drop? i mean can someone explain it to me in the tory way of thinking? 'we need to pay off our debts, you know how we'll do that is by having less money to spend let alone use to save up to pay the debt off'? are they expecting every person it relates to to go and employ 10 people now they have a unnoticable amount added to the millions they already have sat in the bank not being used to employ people?

according to the radio the 50p rate slows the economy down because people will actually refuse extra income if it gets taxed! this makes zero sense to me, you're still going to have more money in the bank.

those people should go back to making under £5k or whatever it is if they hate paying taxes

it's a "disincentive" for "wealth-creators" and makes it harder for the UK to attract "top talent"

Of all the stupid and hateful right-wing euphemisms I think I hate "wealth creators" more than any except "hardworking families".

The difference between the two is that it's not even true: Wealth does not get 'created', it has to come from somewhere.

"Hardworking families" doesn't exactly mean what it says either. Anyway, they're both intentionally divisive terms that tell you that you're "deserving" and others aren't.

The idea/justification is also that it stimulates the economy by giving them more money to spend, although it doesn't really work out like that because the bigger your income the more you're likely to be saving rather than spending. Actually a straight tax cut for people on much lower incomes does more to stimulate the economy because it goes straight to people who by and large are not in a position to save and therefore immediately gets spent. The same is true for most benefits payments but of course they don't really want you to know that.

How does the 50p tax rate affect "wealth creators" anyway? Aren't "wealth creators" taking their incomes from business profits rather than wages and thus on a completely different tax system?

And does anyone really use the term "wealth creator" outside the American Republican party?

Yeah I don't really think there's much thought behind the rhetoric. The one fact that people use to attack the 50p rate is that it may be bringing in less income than was expected when first introduced (hundreds of millions rather than billions iirc).

And does anyone really use the term "wealth creator" outside the American Republican party?

Sadly it's made its way across the ocean; couple of hits from a quick Google:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17221941
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chancellor-hopes-to-secure-cut-in-50p-tax-rate-7574720.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2116856/The-Budget-2012-Britain-Lib-Dems.html

entry #2 of this fine cracked list is a good answer to all the 'wealth creator' rhetoric http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-things-rich-people-need-to-stop-saying_p2/?wa_user1=1&wa_user2=News&wa_user3=blog&wa_user4=trending_now

Love that article.

it's really good, isn't it?

At some point Britain is going to regret sitting by and letting the govt basically give up democratic accountability for seemingly every single public service imaginable and even the widespread low-level moaning from all quarters won't be enough to persuade any politician to do anything other than go "it's out of our hands now". For gas and railways read NHS and school system, what joy.

since the companies that essentially run the country aren't accountable, it wd be remiss of the Tories to leave out whatever they leave of the welfare state

What are we supposed to do, though? I mean, what do we do now? Yes, that's a rhetorical question, but it's like... I voted the best option I could. I wrote to my MP. I adopted a lord and wrote to her, too. I went and marched politely on little demos. I signed half a dozen different petitions, I did many of the things 38degrees recommended. What the fuck else are we supposed to do? It's just the sense of utter powerlessness in all this that's not just frustrating but utterly dispiriting. How do you make people accountable?

Have the unformed notion that answer lies somewhere along the path of following the money.

On that note, just saw this on the twitter http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/nhs-privatisation-compilation-of.html?m=1

enshrining the wkend a bit is a good thing imo. working sundays makes yr social life wither & as compensation you get an exciting empty tuesday to enjoy w/ no one else you know.

The budget will usher in major changes to the way UK-based multinationals are taxed on profits from their overseas subsidiaries, as well as huge cuts in corporation tax. Over the lifetime of this parliament, about £20bn will be lost in tax receipts as a result, according to the Treasury's own estimates.

lmao that is just horrific

james, do you think you could start a separate thread to post links to outrageous national newspaper articles/outrageous comments on national newspaper articles/outrageous tweets?

20bn lost in tax receipts as a direct result, with nothing gained? what an amazing decision by the govt, they must rly h8 money.

It's bad news for the quiz machines NV:

A new machine games duty to be introduced.

20 percent? wankers

otoh no change on alcohol duty, encouraging you to stay at the bar instead

From midnight tonight, new stamp duty level of 7% for homes worth more than £2 million.

oh thank fuck something for hard-working families

osborne's face during miliband is picture of petulance

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/59219000/jpg/_59219185_014317284-1.jpg

leave it gripper! 'e ain't wurf it!

PASTY TAX?!?!?!?

http://robscornishblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/osbornes-pasty-tax-hidden-in-budget.html

That's it, I'm joining Mebyon Kernow, I fully support secession over this.