Going To Law School

good

Good news for people already in law school

Negligbly so, imo. There aren't many scenarios in which you'd be competing for work with someone coming up behind you.

If anything, good news for anyone who winds up in a smaller law school class as a result. Although I don't know if the drop is going to be big enough to have that kind of impact.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/9-graduates-lose-case-against-new-york-law-school/?emc=eta1

They sought $225 million in damages — a number that they said represented the difference between what they contended was inflated tuition and the “true value” of their degree.

lol

i sympathize with the plaintiffs and American law schools are really slippery wr2 how they report graduates' salaries, but really the plaintiffs didn't stand a ghost of a chance.

this will be a pr problem that won't wash away anytime soon, however, and will seem far more important when nyls eventually goes out of business

they didn't stand a chance in part because the problem is too big and entrenched. If every law school suddenly had to openly report realistic employment numbers, it would upend the industry.

Also the judicial system is itself kind of invested in the law school-industrial complex. At very least I think judges are likely to have a special kind bias.

I dunno they have a bias for 'the system works! look at me, for example' and not necessarily 'lol let's ensure that middle class kids continue to graduate w/ 6 figures of debt and no job prospects'

like they're not getting paid under the table by law schools and in fact it's in the best interest of people w/ jds to slow the creation of new jds a la the AMA

That's what I mean though. They're all people for whom the system worked out quite well. They also all graduated at a very different time in legal education and the job market.

I actually don't think the AMA comparison works. A partner in a law firm has an interest in a huge pool of potential associates.

I think that if the current biglaw hiring cuts keep going in the mid-to-long term, it's realistic to think that better financially endowed universities will demand that their law schools reform their financial aid so that it's not modeled on the "into the firms you go! You'll be rich!" nonsense that's around at the moment, and poorer universities may have to dramatically shrink their admissions.

That sounds backwards. Law Schools are cash cows for universities.

Think it through, counselor: they are cash cows under the current "get loans and pay us in full, you'll be ok" model. IF that model is dying, as it would have to be if the current hiring crisis continues...

well, the ABA certainly isn't going to push for it ... in fact, their accredidation standards are arguably one of the factors for law schools' tuition hikes over the years. on this and a zillion other things, the ABA may be the most useless guild/trade association ever.

also hurting OTM wr2 the mindset of old-school lawyers/judges wr2 younger lawyers and their debt loads/job problems.

I actually don't think the AMA comparison works. A partner in a law firm has an interest in a huge pool of potential associates.

― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, March 23, 2012 4:20 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk, a small law firm in a small market does not benefit from the market being flooded, and a big law firm in a big market doesn't really have anything invested in how many students there are at nyls.

The firms are going to lose their leverage if they start messing with big universities' credibility, is what I'm saying.

That isn't true, necessarily xpost. Discovery requires a huge supply of relatively cheap JD labor. Big firms, in fact, do rely on armies of NYLS graduates who work for them via contractors. And the more of those you have who are desperate for work, the better quality you get and the less you have to pay.

The firms are going to lose their leverage if they start messing with big universities' credibility, is what I'm saying.

― Three Word Username, Friday, March 23, 2012 5:31 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh I guess maybe at some point that becomes true. It's hard for me to think of a university right now whose law school's reputation is in danger of being enough degrees worse to drag it down.

graduates-lose-case-against-new-york-law-school

haha explains why they were they ones who didnt get jobs amirite

yeah I guess I wasn't thinking about that, tho I've gotten the sense that the work can eventually be automated xp

There is early talk of something called "computer assisted document review" right now which might eliminate some of the need for some of the most basic document coding jobs. It sounds a little questionable to me unless they've invented AI and not told anyone.

people who don't care about this subject can't tell you what schools have good law schools anyway. there are relatively few schools w/ any sort of national prestige, and only some of them have law schools, and they're all schools that will survive the wildfire regardless.

xps

What I suggest is not going to happen this year or next year, but the current crop of mid-level partners never saw the law firm life in the 80s and may not believe that the good times will come back -- so they might keep hiring levels low after a recovery (as their clients figured out in '02) -- and that would definitely force the issue.

So, cash cow gives no more green milk and people start bitching loudly about the credibility of the placement and financial aid departments: reform it or close it.

well the lawyer-population ratio today is unsustainably high regardless and regardless of doc review, various forms of legal automation will prob lower what the 'sustainable' lawyer-population ratio would be anyway

besides lol "computer assisted document review," there's the specter of "old-school" document review being sent to India -- which is a much more real short-term threat than automated.

and of course there's good old legalzoom.com -- if you REALLY want to see small firm/solos go ballistic, mention that name and break out the popcorn.

yeah thats what I meant w/ various forms of automation

yeah thats what I meant w/ various forms of automation

fwiw, i know of no small number of litigators who are smacking their lips in anticipation of the massive anticipated legal clusterfucks from the cheapskates who used legalzoom for whatever reason.

I'm planning on using siri as my lawyer if I ever go to court

lame brag, but I kind of feel like I "leveled up" at work today. Busted my ass on a really hard assignment, got an understated "I thought it was good" from a partner who is usually critical, and then got a new challenging assignment from partners I haven't worked for before.

Holy fuck am I glad to be out of that world. I tease you, Hurting, but I am sincerely grateful for your posts for reminding that quitting the practice of law was absolutely the right decision. So here's some heartfelt advice: read what you just posted and ask yourself if that's who you want to be.

hurting's post could refer to any career in the world, not sure why he should be bummed that he felt useful at work just cuz he happens to be a lawyer

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

i never feel useful at work!

and that's different from most other professional jobs exactly how?!?

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

― Three Word Username, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:22 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk this just seems like 'having a job' xp

I was gonna say, that sounds like life at an established software company

are you sure you're not a lawyer?? how sure

ironically, I write document review software

Dan is an ILX board lawyer ...

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

― Three Word Username, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:22 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IDK, I used to think like this too, but I had years and years before law school of pretty much total autonomy. Easy job that paid the bills, tons of free time, and I didn't do jack shit with it for at least a few of those years. Plus, when I think about it, being in a band had elements of the same thing to it -- stranger went out of his way to tell us "great show," stranger bought our CD, college radio station played our song, crap local newspaper mentioned us, legit secondary city alt-weekly made our show a "pick" for the week, we get to open for x, we get to open for x^2, etc. Yeah, it's all meaningless approval but I get pretty bored without it.

At least this approval might translate to a raise.

I should add, though, that this is at a relatively small firm where I get to do very interesting and challenging work. I'm not this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_auFicUWK4

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03/new-technology-may-spell-doom-for-new-lawyers.html

I swear that I had the exact same idea for my own law school about a year ago and strongly considered suggesting it to the dean:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2012-05-01/hastings-law-school-admissions/54662710/1