Going To Law School

well, the ABA certainly isn't going to push for it ... in fact, their accredidation standards are arguably one of the factors for law schools' tuition hikes over the years. on this and a zillion other things, the ABA may be the most useless guild/trade association ever.

also hurting OTM wr2 the mindset of old-school lawyers/judges wr2 younger lawyers and their debt loads/job problems.

I actually don't think the AMA comparison works. A partner in a law firm has an interest in a huge pool of potential associates.

― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, March 23, 2012 4:20 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk, a small law firm in a small market does not benefit from the market being flooded, and a big law firm in a big market doesn't really have anything invested in how many students there are at nyls.

The firms are going to lose their leverage if they start messing with big universities' credibility, is what I'm saying.

That isn't true, necessarily xpost. Discovery requires a huge supply of relatively cheap JD labor. Big firms, in fact, do rely on armies of NYLS graduates who work for them via contractors. And the more of those you have who are desperate for work, the better quality you get and the less you have to pay.

The firms are going to lose their leverage if they start messing with big universities' credibility, is what I'm saying.

― Three Word Username, Friday, March 23, 2012 5:31 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh I guess maybe at some point that becomes true. It's hard for me to think of a university right now whose law school's reputation is in danger of being enough degrees worse to drag it down.

graduates-lose-case-against-new-york-law-school

haha explains why they were they ones who didnt get jobs amirite

yeah I guess I wasn't thinking about that, tho I've gotten the sense that the work can eventually be automated xp

There is early talk of something called "computer assisted document review" right now which might eliminate some of the need for some of the most basic document coding jobs. It sounds a little questionable to me unless they've invented AI and not told anyone.

people who don't care about this subject can't tell you what schools have good law schools anyway. there are relatively few schools w/ any sort of national prestige, and only some of them have law schools, and they're all schools that will survive the wildfire regardless.

xps

What I suggest is not going to happen this year or next year, but the current crop of mid-level partners never saw the law firm life in the 80s and may not believe that the good times will come back -- so they might keep hiring levels low after a recovery (as their clients figured out in '02) -- and that would definitely force the issue.

So, cash cow gives no more green milk and people start bitching loudly about the credibility of the placement and financial aid departments: reform it or close it.

well the lawyer-population ratio today is unsustainably high regardless and regardless of doc review, various forms of legal automation will prob lower what the 'sustainable' lawyer-population ratio would be anyway

besides lol "computer assisted document review," there's the specter of "old-school" document review being sent to India -- which is a much more real short-term threat than automated.

and of course there's good old legalzoom.com -- if you REALLY want to see small firm/solos go ballistic, mention that name and break out the popcorn.

yeah thats what I meant w/ various forms of automation

yeah thats what I meant w/ various forms of automation

fwiw, i know of no small number of litigators who are smacking their lips in anticipation of the massive anticipated legal clusterfucks from the cheapskates who used legalzoom for whatever reason.

I'm planning on using siri as my lawyer if I ever go to court

lame brag, but I kind of feel like I "leveled up" at work today. Busted my ass on a really hard assignment, got an understated "I thought it was good" from a partner who is usually critical, and then got a new challenging assignment from partners I haven't worked for before.

Holy fuck am I glad to be out of that world. I tease you, Hurting, but I am sincerely grateful for your posts for reminding that quitting the practice of law was absolutely the right decision. So here's some heartfelt advice: read what you just posted and ask yourself if that's who you want to be.

hurting's post could refer to any career in the world, not sure why he should be bummed that he felt useful at work just cuz he happens to be a lawyer

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

i never feel useful at work!

and that's different from most other professional jobs exactly how?!?

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

― Three Word Username, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:22 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk this just seems like 'having a job' xp

I was gonna say, that sounds like life at an established software company

are you sure you're not a lawyer?? how sure

ironically, I write document review software

Dan is an ILX board lawyer ...

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

― Three Word Username, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:22 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IDK, I used to think like this too, but I had years and years before law school of pretty much total autonomy. Easy job that paid the bills, tons of free time, and I didn't do jack shit with it for at least a few of those years. Plus, when I think about it, being in a band had elements of the same thing to it -- stranger went out of his way to tell us "great show," stranger bought our CD, college radio station played our song, crap local newspaper mentioned us, legit secondary city alt-weekly made our show a "pick" for the week, we get to open for x, we get to open for x^2, etc. Yeah, it's all meaningless approval but I get pretty bored without it.

At least this approval might translate to a raise.

I should add, though, that this is at a relatively small firm where I get to do very interesting and challenging work. I'm not this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_auFicUWK4

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03/new-technology-may-spell-doom-for-new-lawyers.html

I swear that I had the exact same idea for my own law school about a year ago and strongly considered suggesting it to the dean:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2012-05-01/hastings-law-school-admissions/54662710/1

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304458604577486623469958142.html?mod=WSJ_hp_editorsPicks_1

upshot: grads of my class year had a 50/50 shot at actually working as a lawyer within 9 months of graduation.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/16/the-toppling-of-top-tier-lawyer-jobs/?hp

Was hoping thread title would be a new Mountain Goats song.

now that i'm a little less depressed i'm looking back on my law school career and realizing i had the potential to be a good lawyer. i mean, i won every hearing i argued in court (some of them called 'hopeless' by my supervisors and one of whom got pretty snarky that i actually won) so i must've had some aptitude for it. i've effortlessy destroyed key witnesses, got people $$$ on technicalities, and came up with strategies minutes before argument and on-the-fly which actually worked! i even scored some As despite being in a chemically-induced coma the entire run.

at this point i'm not sure i could even get back in the game being close to 2 years out with no further legal experience. the only thing i found fun about it was arguing in court or writing heavy evidence-based briefs (not any of that statute this, statute that kinda crap) but the matters involved are always miserable as fuck and the clients were a pain in the ass. oh well, not sure this comment has any point outside public self confession.

damn, i remember one time when one judge's jaw dropped after my closing argument ... new shit just kept flying through my head. ah well! i'm gainfully employed anyway. i doubt doing personal injury or some shit like that would've been all that great.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/opinion/practicing-law-should-not-mean-living-in-bankruptcy.html

the matters involved are always miserable as fuck and the clients were a pain in the ass

this is law

I spoke in court for the first time today! It basically amounted to "Your Honor, I'm Hurting of the lawfirm Lol Waht Roffle LLP, and with me is David Ilxor, whose pro hac admission is pending before this court. He will be speaking for--"

Judge cuts me off and starts talking, pro hac dude does the rest.

New York State Court is weird. We were sitting across the table from the judge, who dealt with us conversationally and was not wearing a robe.

i think the first thing judges swear to do is to make everyone look and feel stupid

http://www.grandtetonlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/stantonlogo.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AMD6VJ8XL.jpg

haha

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/education/law-schools-applications-fall-as-costs-rise-and-jobs-are-cut.html

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/01/31/education/31lawschool-webgraphic/31lawschool-webgraphic-popup.gif

Indiana Tech's new law school in Fort Wayne will be the state's fifth when it opens this fall. The law school the University of North Texas plans to open in Dallas next year will be just down the road from Southern Methodist University's Dedman School of Law, and less than an hour's drive from one in Fort Worth that Texas A&M University is in the process of buying from Texas Wesleyan University, one of nine in the state.

Damn. It was a motherfucking decade ago that I was getting ready to go to law school.

Damn.

What's going on with y'all?