Going To Law School

are you sure you're not a lawyer?? how sure

ironically, I write document review software

Dan is an ILX board lawyer ...

The Freudian drama of law firm life -- the desperate longing for approval, the holding on to the meaningless "I thought it was good", the reward being a challenging new assignment -- it's all there, and it's all crap, and no grown person should put themselves through it. But highly-paid young lawyers do, AND IT NEVER STOPS.

― Three Word Username, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:22 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IDK, I used to think like this too, but I had years and years before law school of pretty much total autonomy. Easy job that paid the bills, tons of free time, and I didn't do jack shit with it for at least a few of those years. Plus, when I think about it, being in a band had elements of the same thing to it -- stranger went out of his way to tell us "great show," stranger bought our CD, college radio station played our song, crap local newspaper mentioned us, legit secondary city alt-weekly made our show a "pick" for the week, we get to open for x, we get to open for x^2, etc. Yeah, it's all meaningless approval but I get pretty bored without it.

At least this approval might translate to a raise.

I should add, though, that this is at a relatively small firm where I get to do very interesting and challenging work. I'm not this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_auFicUWK4

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03/new-technology-may-spell-doom-for-new-lawyers.html

I swear that I had the exact same idea for my own law school about a year ago and strongly considered suggesting it to the dean:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2012-05-01/hastings-law-school-admissions/54662710/1

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304458604577486623469958142.html?mod=WSJ_hp_editorsPicks_1

upshot: grads of my class year had a 50/50 shot at actually working as a lawyer within 9 months of graduation.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/16/the-toppling-of-top-tier-lawyer-jobs/?hp

Was hoping thread title would be a new Mountain Goats song.

now that i'm a little less depressed i'm looking back on my law school career and realizing i had the potential to be a good lawyer. i mean, i won every hearing i argued in court (some of them called 'hopeless' by my supervisors and one of whom got pretty snarky that i actually won) so i must've had some aptitude for it. i've effortlessy destroyed key witnesses, got people $$$ on technicalities, and came up with strategies minutes before argument and on-the-fly which actually worked! i even scored some As despite being in a chemically-induced coma the entire run.

at this point i'm not sure i could even get back in the game being close to 2 years out with no further legal experience. the only thing i found fun about it was arguing in court or writing heavy evidence-based briefs (not any of that statute this, statute that kinda crap) but the matters involved are always miserable as fuck and the clients were a pain in the ass. oh well, not sure this comment has any point outside public self confession.

damn, i remember one time when one judge's jaw dropped after my closing argument ... new shit just kept flying through my head. ah well! i'm gainfully employed anyway. i doubt doing personal injury or some shit like that would've been all that great.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/opinion/practicing-law-should-not-mean-living-in-bankruptcy.html

the matters involved are always miserable as fuck and the clients were a pain in the ass

this is law

I spoke in court for the first time today! It basically amounted to "Your Honor, I'm Hurting of the lawfirm Lol Waht Roffle LLP, and with me is David Ilxor, whose pro hac admission is pending before this court. He will be speaking for--"

Judge cuts me off and starts talking, pro hac dude does the rest.

New York State Court is weird. We were sitting across the table from the judge, who dealt with us conversationally and was not wearing a robe.

i think the first thing judges swear to do is to make everyone look and feel stupid

http://www.grandtetonlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/stantonlogo.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AMD6VJ8XL.jpg

haha

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/education/law-schools-applications-fall-as-costs-rise-and-jobs-are-cut.html

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/01/31/education/31lawschool-webgraphic/31lawschool-webgraphic-popup.gif

Indiana Tech's new law school in Fort Wayne will be the state's fifth when it opens this fall. The law school the University of North Texas plans to open in Dallas next year will be just down the road from Southern Methodist University's Dedman School of Law, and less than an hour's drive from one in Fort Worth that Texas A&M University is in the process of buying from Texas Wesleyan University, one of nine in the state.

Damn. It was a motherfucking decade ago that I was getting ready to go to law school.

Damn.

What's going on with y'all?

starting law school in the fall, not sure how to feel about the fact that nobody else wants to

If you know why you are going, have a specific sub-specialty in mind, and plan on hanging out your own shingle or have a good network away from large law firms, you should feel great. Otherwise, you should feel like a sucker now and avoid the rush in three years.

good thing no current ilxors are in law school

um. hi? but not in america. not that that makes a ~huge~ difference, but our issues are slightly different.

yea damn, this time 10 yrs ago i was prob sitting in civ pro or sum shiz

altho on a friday i mightev cut out instead 2 go see a movie or sleep or w/e

starting law school in the fall, not sure how to feel about the fact that nobody else wants to

― een, Friday, February 1, 2013 12:45 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Actually, I disagree with TWU -- enrollment is going to be incredibly low in your class year, and that means a less-crowded job market. That's not to say the picture is sunny, but you might be a lot better off than people of my class year were. Particularly if the worst of the bad economy is over (I don't expect a return to boom times but I don't think we'll get 2008/09 again either).

FWIW, I would still add the caveat that law school is a much better gamble if you are going to a Top 14 law school, a state "flagship" in an area that isn't crowded with law schools, and/or have some scholarship money coming. If you're going to a school ranked, say, 51-100 or below, in a major market, and paying full tuition, I would seriously reconsider.

it's not like every grad who's underemployed/unemployed from now to een's graduation drops out of the job market

and in the medium term it's reasonable to expect the field to contract

nearly everyone i knew in law school (class of 2011, tier 2, nyc market) have attorney gigs, or something related like senior claims analysts, legal coordinators, etc. so it's not like you'll graduate straight into a ditch or something. if you are paying full tuition, make sure this something you'll be able to tolerate, usual advice, etc. etc.

specialize or distinguish urself somehow in ERISA or medicare/medicaid stuff 4 the future and youll nvr be outta work

but then again that stuff is largely horrible

nearly everyone i knew in law school (class of 2011, tier 2, nyc market) have attorney gigs, or something related like senior claims analysts, legal coordinators, etc. so it's not like you'll graduate straight into a ditch or something. if you are paying full tuition, make sure this something you'll be able to tolerate, usual advice, etc. etc.

― Spectrum, Friday, February 1, 2013 11:53 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is true for me too, but a lot of the jobs are pretty low-paying for someone trying to service six-figure debt (30-60k/year range). "Something you'll be able to tolerate" = have a plan for the early years, being able to live at home if needed, etc. If you can stick those years out and you're any good you can build a career. A huge number of people just leave the law market altogether, even those who find employment.

As far as iatee's post, the law market doesn't exactly work like that. People who graduate in 2016 won't be competing with people who graduated in 2012 for jobs, all of whom will either be mid-level assocaites by then or will have left the market. I mean in some sense money is money and hiring is hiring, but you're not competing for the same jobs.

As far as "specializing" in something, I don't agree with this advice. Specialization in law school is often worthless, and many people find themselves in areas of law that they never expected to be in. You learn on the job. Instead, take a broad range of substantive courses (don't overload on fluffy seminars) so you have a broad base of basic knowledge.

E.g. I tried to "specialize" in IP, but when a job opp fell through at the last minute I wound up wrangling myself a job in a totally unrelated field. Luckily I had at least taken a couple of basic courses in it, but my job has been a real crash course.

well I'm talking about more about how the national supply/demand mismatch for 'legal work' isn't necessarily going to have worked itself out by 2016 - if anything it's likely to be worse. that is different from the supply/demand mismatch for entry level associate jobs but it's not unrelated.

As far as "specializing" in something, I don't agree with this advice. Specialization in law school is often worthless, and many people find themselves in areas of law that they never expected to be in. You learn on the job. Instead, take a broad range of substantive courses (don't overload on fluffy seminars) so you have a broad base of basic knowledge.

― space phwoar (Hurting 2), Friday, February 1, 2013 11:14 AM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is my mindset right now. my *dream* is to work in the doj, but i know i might have to fall back from that and i might not get to choose where. i am going to a top school, and the LRAP is still the shit, but it's hard not to be a handwringing pussy about it when everything you hear is "SINKING SHIP, INSTITUTIONAL FAILURE"

"People who graduate in 2016 won't be competing with people who graduated in 2012 for jobs, all of whom will either be mid-level assocaites by then or will have left the market."

By 2016, the label "mid-level associate" will be meaningless. The large firms that treat significantly smaller classes of associates much much worse in terms of job security, workload, and compensation will be the ones that survive.

Also specializing has very, very little to do with the classes you choose if you aren't at a top tier school, and much more to do with the summer internships you fight for (and are willing to be not well-paid at).

I don't look forward to Hurting's inevitable "I didn't make partner, but it's ok" posts in a couple years.

You looked forward to his "rude awakening in the next 24 months" in July 2010.

Yup. Keep reading.

Wait, he didn't have a job for 13 days after graduation. Was that the rude awakening?

the rude awakening is now he looks in the mirror and sees a lawyer

specialize or distinguish urself somehow in ERISA or medicare/medicaid stuff 4 the future and youll nvr be outta work

― johnny crunch, Friday, February 1, 2013 4:55 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

but then again that stuff is largely horrible

― johnny crunch, Friday, February 1, 2013 4:56 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I do ERISA litigation and god help me, but I like it.

haha cool i dont really know anything abt it btw

the rude awakening is now he looks in the mirror and sees a lawyer

― iatee, Friday, February 1, 2013 5:33 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

If you "read on" you actually see that things didn't work out so badly for me. I'm in a smaller firm at a good salary, my work is relatively interesting, and I get to see my family. And staying on in my firm and making partner is actually not so crazy -- not like the 1/7 or 1/10 or whatever shot you have in biglaw.

My work also sometimes involves ERISA sometimes, although it doesn't require me to be steeped in the arcana of the statutory scheme.

Yeah, me neither. My area is employee benefits litigation so it's pretty straight forward (except when it's a total mess, but that's kind of fun, too).

I work in biglaw but as a staff attorney (so not partner track) which is pretty sweet. I get the perks of biglaw (well, aside from the huge salary) without the pressure.

i do a lot of freelance "litigation support" for biglaw, and yeah afaict staff attys know what's up

If you know why you are going, have a specific sub-specialty in mind, and plan on hanging out your own shingle or have a good network away from large law firms, you should feel great. Otherwise, you should feel like a sucker now and avoid the rush in three years.

wish i had this advice when i started.

een, i highly recommend you check out this article. it's one i wish i had read before choosing to take the plunge. the social mobility bit about the vague aspirational middle class law school hopes really hit home for me.

http://duncankennedy.net/documents/Legal%20Education%20as%20Training%20for%20Hierarchy_Politics%20of%20Law.pdf

for some context i'm at law school in canada, but am in a similar situation to spectrum's. dealt with a lot of depression type stuff last year, plus the whole realization of "i have no idea why i'm here in the first place." so i'm deferring my 3rd year until september just to kind of get my depression settled down and figure my life out a bit. it's going pretty ok so far; the funny thing is that the people who like the idea most are lawyers =_=

still not entirely sure of what's gonna be in store for me when i return. not sure if i wanna practice or not i guess. i kinda find the majority of my colleagues hideous and depressing (although a select few are truly wonderful). i think i might be able to get myself back in gear school-wise and look for work. right now i'm thinking that i could just be selective and not spring for a law job immediately after graduation. just take my time to find a firm where i actually like the people. i'm blessed with having kind middle-class parents who used like all their money to fund my (cheap) canadian legal education, so i'm not in debt.

is there such thing as a low-stress (relatively speaking) law job? does that exist in family law? i'm thinking it might be nice to shoot for family law mediation. there's new legislation in my province that basically funnels every family court case to mediation, so i imagine there'll be lots of opportunities there. it also seems like an ~~existentially rewarding~~ career path, fwiw (which is a lot to me).

one of the big worries i have is that even in family law mediation, you're still subject to a lot of the agonies and horrors of family law in general. anyone know anything about this? i'm wondering if me, a sensitive individual, would be able to handle it. i left largely cuz of stress (shocker) and i found that despite being really quite good at trial advocacy, i might have had a hard time dealing with the adrenaline-rush cutthroat nature of it all. it kinda sucks that my greatest lawyer strength is the thing that seemingly gave me the biggest headache, but eh. hopefully a door opens as that window closes, ya know.

this ended up being a minor soliliquy i see. whoops