the most important election of your lifetime: 2012 american general election thread

Personal freedoms have been eroding for a long while, both legally and practically.

Personal freedoms in this country have never existed.

A vote is also an incredibly diffuse instrument of responsibility: if you want to make your views on this (any) matter clearer than when you voted - here's the streets, take to them.

i don't understand the sense of accounting that goes, "my vote means that everything this government does for four years in on my conscience, i won't bear eight". st. peter isn't holding you to such a raw deal.

st. peter isn't holding me to anything. i choose my own sense of moral responsibility. if the french government does something i see as immoral, i may register an objection by some means or another, but I'm not terribly likely to view myself as helping shape French policy. I feel less responsibility to ensure that the wold world acts in accordance with my values than I do to ensure that America does so. And I feel less responsibility to police America's actions than my own. Expanding circles of selfhood and localism.

A vote is also an incredibly diffuse instrument of responsibility: if you want to make your views on this (any) matter clearer than when you voted - here's the streets, take to them.

Well exactly. I'm not just talking about voting.

struggling w this Capitalization business, obv

Dude, are you simply not following this? The US government that kills a US citizen is the same one that kills a foreign national!

the levels of control i can exert on actors within the french and american governments appear pretty similar to me.

ha how morbsy is that

you voted for a man, he does something horrible, what level of responsibility do you have for that thing? as much as guilt can be quantified, i'd say it is an amount indistinguishable from zero. what control do you have over affairs, in that moment after you learned of the murder?

You gain some in the moment he's up for re-election. And in your choice to register protest in other forms.

I understand the decision to vote for Obama on a lesser-evil basis even though I won't do it. What I don't understand is how the Democratic Party, the news media, or anyone else will distinguish your reluctant vote from "yay Barack, keep on doin what yer doin."

I think that's the heart of it, actually. The problem with sticking to moral principles when it comes to voting is that the reality for me is that America largely doesn't reflect my values, sometimes in its laws and framework, and a lot more in practicality. That's not just the government, of course. It's the private companies (whom I still believe do the most damage) and the citizens who accept it. Part of the reason I don't like Americans running around the world killing folk in "defense" of this country is that I'm not entirely convinced its a country worth defending.

There needs to be a significant change, but that won't happen until the people decide that what's going on is "wrong" and there's a popular force backing the kinds of thing OWS is talking about. If that were to happen, I think Obama would be more inclined to follow that lead than Romney, who would outright ignore it as "wrong".

So really, despite all the shitty things Obama has done, it always goes back to Romney being worse. I'll vote for the person who does the least amount of damage to the people who need it most. Just because I don't like what the President has done, I don't think I can in good conscious not do my part by voting if doing nothing allows for the possibility that the downtrodden in society are going to be worse off, or that women can't get access to adequate healthcare, or that Romney's trickle-down, businessmen-know-best attitude won't be unleashed on an unsuspecting and largely uninformed citizenry.

But you know, that's just my own personal moral justification.

Because a vote for Obama DOES register as "yah, Barack, keep on doin what yer doin"?

xpost

Morbs OTM about the media, but I'm about as likely to reach up into the sky and touch the moon than affect any change in that risible industry.

obama was going to 'do what he was gonna do' whether he won 51% or 60% of the vote, he would not if he won 49% of the vote

yes, the US govmint/political process is more illegitimate than it has been post-Voting Rights Act, so ... well, we know what the next logical step is.

actually Gukbe, the way the media talked about Occupy DID change, if only by degrees, from September to November. Don't be so cynical.

I think pretty much the best + only reason to vote is bc Democracy as a principle is worth supporting and one of the best ways to participate in a Democracy is to vote. It kinda doesn't matter who you vote for (statistically or ethically) and it kinda doesn't matter what they do (Zizek argues that dictators can actually be better for citizens than presidents since if a dictator fucks up he loses his head, if the president fucks up the citizens just vote in a new one who does the same shit). All that really matters is reaffirming Democracy bc the idea that everyone has a right to self-determination is one of the only good ideas human beings have come up with and even if it doesn't always shake out that great, we should still celebrate it. The whole lesser of two evils thing is kinda a sideshow.

so let's get a democracy.

we have one we just live in a country w/ lots of stupid people

Obamney are not candidates, they are paid agents of the ruling oligarchy.

actually Gukbe, the way the media talked about Occupy DID change, if only by degrees, from September to November. Don't be so cynical.

I watched too much Fox News I think.

Because a vote for Obama DOES register as "yah, Barack, keep on doin what yer doin"?

i know, sucks doesn't it? the point i'm trying to make is that voting is not a "free" act. not being a free and open choice, i dunno, something about a tragic sensibility goes here.

True, but one candidate is going to limit access women have to healthcare, mammograms, and birth control, whereas the other isn't.

xposts

Dude, are you simply not following this? The US government that kills a US citizen is the same one that kills a foreign national!

― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:11 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh sure, I object to assassinations of foreign nationals in much the same sense that I do assassinations of American citizens. I would say that the legal and pragmatic issues involved are vastly different, but that the moral differences are slight (thought not trivial).

From the getgo, the USA structured its government to favor the wealthy over the poor and it has always been a titanic struggle for the poor and other powerless people to get their concerns addressed by the government. That's why Eugene Debs could get millions of votes for president and still get put in jail for sedition. And that was when the poor were far better organized than they are today.

True, but one candidate is going to limit access women have to healthcare, mammograms, and birth control, whereas the other isn't.

OTM. If you think that the government is going to do evil, rob the poor to fatten the rich, and trash civil liberties no matter which of the "electable" parties is in office, then by all means work for change, take to the streets in protest, write a blog or w/e. But that shouldn't prevent you from at least considering that there mgith be a lesser between the two available evils, and that if so, then some real good might be served in the sort run by at least grudgingly supporting it. That's the spirit in which I'll be voting for Omaba, fwiw.

xp oh okay you're not following this - that's pretty much what we were talking about.

If you think that the government is going to do evil, rob the poor to fatten the rich, and trash civil liberties no matter which of the "electable" parties is in office

At what point does the factor that the civil liberties situation has gotten worse (because it has) from Dubya to Obama offset the grudging support?

when you genuinely believe that mitt romney would be a better president

at the point where, practically, you have a pretty good notion that Obama is not going to send teams of assassins to pick off citizens in the streets of New York, but you know for certain Romney is going to cut programs that have very real (even life or death in some cases) affects on this country's citizens. At least that's where that line exists for me. xpost

If the #1 issue is climate change -- because pretty much fucknothing has been done on that front in 3-1/2 years -- the social-budget cuts (there will still be Democrats to block those, right? sadlol) are sort of thrown into relief by We're All Gonna Die.

"Hey single mother on a low income working three jobs, I'm sorry that the cause of your recent illness turns out to be cancer that could have been caught early had the government not cut funding, but I couldn't vote for Obama because I didn't agree with him. Still, I had to make a stand, even if it was just for my own piece of mind. Don't worry though, I did it for all of us!"

Well yes, we should definitely vote for the candidate that is going to do something about climate change. What's that name again?

At what point does the factor that the civil liberties situation has gotten worse (because it has) from Dubya to Obama offset the grudging support?

Good question. As a lifelong liberal supporter of the Democratic Party, I've never really had to ask myself that question. Like, Clinton might not have been much better than Reagan or Bush Sr., but he sure as hell wasn't worse. Same goes for Obama, IMO. I don't think that he's worse than Bush Jr. when his administration's actions are taken on the whole, though with regard to civil liberties and executive power, yeah, he's expanded on Bush Jr.

If one believes that Romney could not possibly be any worse than Obama, or to put it another way, that it is the same as a choice between Papa Doc and Baby Doc, or between Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il, then you should definitely toss aside any thought that one's vote could possibly be signifigant.

At which point, if you dare, you go to the streets, or form an underground resistance cell, or smuggle news items about your oppression to outside journalists. Anything but vote or participate in legitimizing your oppressor.

I think that things are presently dim and the outlook is dismal for effective social enlightenment taking hold of the US government. But I also think that elections can still make a difference in outcomes and to conclude otherwise is premature and somewhat over-dramatizing the situation.

Has it really gotten worse? Haven't there been some rays of light, like the Supreme Court ruling that warrantless GPS tracking is a no-no.

xp

it's gotten more codified

If the #1 issue is climate change -- because pretty much fucknothing has been done on that front in 3-1/2 years -- the social-budget cuts (there will still be Democrats to block those, right? sadlol) are sort of thrown into relief by We're All Gonna Die.

well, the fact that a congress that already had passed multiple historically large bills, w/ sinking approval ratings, in the middle of a historic recession attempted a comprehensive bill but eventually failed isn't the same thing as 'fucknothing has been done' - lots was done politically, it didn't pass. I mean, the #1 issue def is climate change and if there were a reason to believe that romney were going to be a better president w/r/t climate change, or that 'having more democrats in office and fewer republicans' was gonna be correlated w/ worse climate change legislation, it would def make things more complicated. but it's not, it's pretty straight-forward, the only way there will be real climate change legislation is w/ a 'even bigger than 2008' type democratic sweep.

you don't have to love the democratic party or even have any feelings towards the party to hope for that event to happen.

Also, if things like gay rights count as civil liberties (I think they do) then dropping DADT and not defending DOMA should be counted as victories too. xp

I've yet to hear an argument for not voting (short of plans for revolution) that isn't sophomoric and that doesn't smack of privilege. "The world will blow up either way"...yeah and if it doesn't, your life probably WON'T be affected either way, lucky you.

because pretty much fucknothing has been done on that front in 3-1/2 years

lol as opposed to the 8 preceding years amirite

I'm sympathetic enough with the frustrations of our political system, that I won't even play the "lesser of two evils" game. vote for mickey mouse, nader, whatever, it's the simplest way to be accounted for as an active citizen in the country you pay taxes in and to avoid it is simply lazy.

da croup otm. if you're an american liberal, i figure it's better to work to make the democratic party what you want it to be than just to sit in the corner and sulk because it isn't. otoh, if you're expended all the effort you can manage on the former and still don't have it it in you to vote for anyone, then i figure you've earned the right to take a powder.

let's be honest here. no one on this thread refusing to vote is setting the world on fire resisting the government. i know, i know, you guys are all secret revolutionaries affecting change on the ground roots level and who the fuck am i i don't know u.

i'm lazy as fuck about political engagement so I'm not going to say "if you don't like it, get involved." But if everyone too fucking moral and glorious to add to the democratic party's mandate went and did a third party/write-in vote, the dem party may well bug the fuck out and try to win you back from mickey mouse.

anyway, i've contracted a van to drive ppl without transportation to the polls all day this november to cast votes for our satanic lord obama and i'm painting "Morbz4Bammers" on the side and my vanity license plate is gonna read 'ILXDemCrew."

Or, if you had a political system where a vote for a third party wasn't half a vote for the other party...

they have those systems in much of the world, centrist parties still run the show

and the third parties that you vote for end up either 'compromising' or having no political power

but you get to feel better about your vote I guess?

I don't think the argument against voting (maybe just in an abstract way, though) is sophomoric. If enough democrats are upset with the state of the party and they show it by not voting, it will make a difference. The problem is that to make that point you're going let it in something worse for 4-8 years, and the reality is there aren't enough of those democrats to make a significant change anyway. Even if they could, they're still a minority within the genreal population. The sad fact is that Americans aren't terribly progressive or well-informed on issues like Climate Change and the specifics of what "the war on Terror" is and what we've given up in order to fight it.

As I've said before, if a groundswell movement like OWS can really sway public opinion (they got income inequality into the national discussion, but they'll need to do A LOT more), then I'd rather have Obama or a Dem in office who might be happy to change things if it becomes politically expedient than Romney or a Republican who is ideologically opposed to such changes.

Or, if you had a political system where a vote for a third party wasn't half a vote for the other party...

well yeah, that's the thing

Or, if you had a political system where a vote for a third party wasn't half a vote for the other party...

Yeah i don't buy this line, true or not.