generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

of course, if I had my fascist ways I'd eliminate all departments except...

this would be a good way to respond to the drop in demand iatee is predicting.

iatee you do realize the krugman futurology article predicts a rise in blue-collar manufacturing?

Or consider the panic over ''downsizing'' that gripped America in 1996. As economists quickly pointed out, the rate at which Americans were losing jobs in the 90's was not especially high by historical standards. Downsizing suddenly became news because, for the first time, white-collar, college-educated workers were being fired in large numbers, even while skilled machinists and other blue-collar workers were in demand.

which is exactly what you said wouldn't happen upthread when you were arguing that manufacturing was on the outs and it was service all the way.

and now you're arguing that white-collar is on the outs and...

of course, if I had my fascist ways I'd eliminate all departments except math, philosophy, computer science, cog sci (which would all be just a single department, actually) & I guess maybe econ, bio, maybe physics

You realize that there are many people who basically agree with this except for the philosophy part? (They'd preserve engineering and medicine too.)

yes and they are all completely out of their minds

xp

again, I wasn't arguing that manufacturing being on the outs was *a good thing* - just that it was a thing. it wasn't a good thing, for the most part.

and now you're arguing that white-collar is on the outs and....

tax mark zuckerberg and give money to poor people or mark zuckerberg gets 100000 slaves.

Philosophy's the same thing as English imo, anything useful you can get out of it you can just figure out on your own. If you can't you're probably no good at it anyway and should stick with what comes naturally. /challops

or mark zuckerberg gets 100000 slaves

...for whom he is legally required to provide nutritious food, health care, child care and decent housing. (But that would require allowing the slaves to vote.)

the key to the krugman thing is interpreting blue collar as 'not white collar' ie not just plumber but also food service, health care workers, personal care etc.

Which would be a valid reading if he didn't specifically describe skilled machinists as being in demand in the exact section I quoted among others. And if he didn't in fact cite plumbers specifically in the first page.

So yes, the key to reading the krugman thing as you do is to pretend you're reading another article.

do you think skilled machinists are going to make up a significant % of the job market in 50 years? I mean I'm willing to say "I think that part was probably wrong"

Is there going to be increases in machinery or pipework that needs to be taken care of in the future? Seems like a pretty weird argument. Sometimes it seems like people think jobs appear out of thin air, as opposed to being directly tied to things that exist in the world...

robots, dude

also w/ the blue collar stuff there's a big difference between machinists and plumbers, between nontradables and tradables - the nontradable blue collar workers - plumbers, construction workers etc. - are a very different thing than auto workers and there's no reason to think that they won't do fine when the downturn is over. .

I'm still voting for iatee's government pays people not to work platform. Or some other way of keeping the economy moving without everyone having to have a job.

anyway a good article on skilled machinists in america:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-it-in-america/8844/

i agree. good article.

then I don't even know what we disagree on w/ this cause the article is almost 100% line w/ my take on the subject. there were better ways to prepare for globalization and technological productivity gains and there are better ways to address them now, but eventually those two things ensured that the type of manufacturing jobs that built the american middle class weren't gonna be around forever. the service sector wasn't a panacea, but it was something for people to do. for how much longer, idk.

do you think skilled machinists are going to make up a significant % of the job market in 50 years?

yes

maybe I should have phrased that 'significant % of the american population'

lol @ Florida cutting their CS department btw

wait waht

for real

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9226477/Florida_university_plan_to_decimate_computer_science_draws_protest?source=rss_keyword_edpicks

"How can you run a computer science department without computer systems staff?" Sitharam asked.

a computer science any

I have thought about this and hear is my measured response:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA

otm

it is basically a lunatic maneuver from any level

especially the analysis that the dean is playing 11-dimensional chess with the legislature

this while opening up a new school at the same time:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/scott-approves-states-12scott-approves-states-12th-university-florida-polytechnic-after-2317216.html

gfs parents are (retired) profs there, incidentally (not in cs)

in the coming higher ed retrenchment there's gonna be schools that reaffirm that, whether they are focusing on pre-professional training or liberal arts education, the source of their economic and cultural value is in the academic program

and schools that gut the computer science department, apparently

well they're sorta just gutting the research side (which is still a bad decision in this case)

Florida gets what it deserves IMO

is there really any downside to ejecting Florida from the Union?

passport required to enter Disney World

some people like citrus fruit I guess idk

legions of elderly Jews once again a stateless people

continental US that much closer to looking like a big rectangle

worth it to strip Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush of US citizenship IMO

poor Alfred

have to break some eggs to make an omelette, etc

someone should ask Tebow what he thinks

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/25/150882741/negotiating-the-college-funding-labyrinth

It's pretty unusual to hear of a CS program being gutted ime - it's the cheapest of the "sciences" given that you need minimal equipment (processors are cheap) and the economic value is obvious (cf. particle physics, to pick an obvious example). Not sure what Gainsville is playing at.

Tom McWilliams, a psychology and computer science major at George Washington University, is paying about $60,000 a year for tuition, room and board.

The main problem is that you're going to George Washington.

you'd be better off going to Maryland, buying a new Beemer each yeah, & impressing/recruiting/seducing GW students for your "social portfolio"

fuck I meant each year, obviously I didn't pay enough for college

gwu is an interesting case http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/feature/the_prestige_racket.php

I basically agree w/ you but if, say, you want to work in dc and your local school is university of wyoming, there def would be a 'worth paying x amount of money' advantage to going to gwu. I don't think that x is $50k but the problem is that the x does exist. university of maryland not particularly cheap for out of state students.

yeah GW is specially fucked. I lived there for a summer on an internship (for which I actually got paid + free housing in the pretty nice dorms, so it wasn't a shitty 2000s-style internship) & it's amazing how close to "the action" you are, at least geographically, which turns out to matter, b/c it's easy to meet cabinet staff etc.

still, the faculty is really lame. can't you just move to College Park for a year & wait tables to establish residency, then start at Maryland on in-state the next year?

from Maryland's web page:

To qualify for in-state tuition, a student must demonstrate that, for at least twelve (12)consecutive months immediately prior to and including the last date available to register for courses in the semester/term for which the student seeks in-state tuition status, the student had the continuous intent to:

1. Make Maryland his or her permanent home; and
2. Abandon his or her former home state; and
3. Reside in Maryland indefinitely; and
4. Reside in Maryland primarily for a purpose other than that of attending an educational institution in Maryland.

Satisfying all of the requirements in Section II (and Section III, when applicable) of this policy demonstrates continuous intent and qualifies a student for in-state tuition. Students not entitled to in-state status under this policy shall be assigned out-of-state status for admission and tuition purposes.

---
so yeah

I wouldn't argue w/ someone employing that strategy, I think there is a crisis ahead because we have a system that is based on people not being particularly practical consumers

looks like it's one year for New York state also, so why not go to CUNY rather than NYU? CUNY kicks ass, at least at the grad level, & b/c it's in NYC lots of superb faculty end up there