Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

The general disagreements tend to be what is "soap opera" and what is just "plot".

soap opera: intriguing story arcs over many episodes iirc?

so basically every serial drama then

yeah, but then The Wire, Deadwood, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Buffy, et al would be soap operas.

There's a pejorative connotation to the term that I don't think everyone is meaning, but it can sometimes be interpreted that way. Soap Operas are really any show with continuing threads, except the shows are never meant to end. It's become known (see the Passions reference above) as a string of Outlandish Plot Devices to keep people watching (and because of the amount of episodes that are produced, lack of constant innovation).

So Peggy being pregnant in the first season, for me, isn't soap opera. It would be if she were dating Pete and then Don barged in and said "that baby is MINE!".

I'm not at all talking about Soap Operas disparagingly, for the record. I've only ever meant it as a genre, and honestly I always enjoyed that given the time period that it DID have that soap-opera quality to the storylines, it felt kind of meta in a weird way.

maybe people are more invested in the show and want it to be a Drama, doesn't really bother me either way. But I've always viewed it as a soap-opera.

Peggy gets pregnant to an ambitious up-and-comer and has a secret abortion and the only person who knows about it is Don Draper, super-executive.

there doesn't have to be barging through doors and j'accuse! standoffs for that to be soap-opera.

Remarkably little happens in terms of overall plot in any given episode of Mad Men, which is why it strikes me as funny that people are quick to shout "Soap Opera". The show has the identity theft hanging over it, or at least it did for a few seasons, but really it was about personal reinvention in America, which is basically the same idea as in The Great Gatsby, and that's surely not a soap opera.

If you take a step back and say "Joan was raped by her fiancee and then he went off to war and while he was off to war her ex-lover and boss had sex and then she got pregnant but she's pretending its her now-ex-husband's baby", then yes, it seems pretty soap opera-y. But it's never presented in that fantastical, DUN-DUN-DUUUUNNNN way.

I have watched an embarrassing amount of actual soap operas. The way Mad Men is shot, written, acted, researched, costumed, etc. etc. is very different.

And Romeo falls in love with a rival family member, whose cousin kills his best friend, and then he kills that cousin, and then he goes on the run only to come back when he thinks his love has killed herself so he kills himself not realising that she didn't ACTUALLY kill herself.

A huge number of stories in any medium, when summed up to their bare essentials, can be seen as soap opera.

I know you're not meaning it in a pejorative Veg, btw.

Well, like I said, it always felt soap opera to me. And I do very much like soap operas and enjoyed them an awful lot at an earlier point in my life (Young and the Restless, Days, Bold)
My feeling was with Mad Men they just snuck the soap opera in the back door with all that meaningful staring out windows and cool clothes and furniture porn

They let you THINK nothing's happening and meanwhile you're slowly, veeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly being indoctrinated into SOAP OPERA VIEWING dun dun

:D

Soap Operas are really any show with continuing threads, except the shows are never meant to end.

No, that's way too broad a definition! Soap operas get their name from serial programs (first radio, then tv) that were targeted at women. They have many of the elements of classic melodrama (the stuff Adorno hated because he felt that it was an opiate of the masses). Plots revolve around domestic issues: relationships and families, mainly.

I did a course on soap operas and it was defined differently, though you're right about its origins. UK soaps v US soaps are way different though.

And Mad Men shares a lot of those elements - like it's 75% soap opera.

The main difference I noticed between UK soaps v US soaps is that the characters/plots of the UK soaps revolved more around the working/lower-middle class, whereas US soaps tended to portray wealthy powerful people.

And it's weird to have people on this thread saying "soap opera" is not a pejorative, when the term, from its inception, was a pejorative. I'd prefer, for the sake of those origins and connotations to refer to it as melodrama.

True, but UK soaps tend to be grounded in a more plausible 'reality', whereas US soaps want the fantastical absurdity.

I'm more willing to accept "melodrama", though I really don't think Mad Men has the heightened quality I associate with it.

But the main focus in the UK, just as in the US, is on families and relationships, right?

heightened quality?

Yeah, the focus tends to be on family units in a community. Heightened quality = sweeping emotions and heart-string tugging.

Heightened quality = sweeping emotions and heart-string tugging

And you don't see this in Mad Men? Not with Betty? Not with Pete and his "surburban adventures"? Not with the Don and Megan drama?

So much of Mad Men just screams out to me, "think of me as scenes from a Douglas Sirk film!"

Absolutely not. Melodrama is as much about presentation than it is about plots.

See, I think the exact opposite re: Sirk films.

I'm referring to the presentation and the plot!

At the very least, I don't see how Mad Men does it any differently than other dramas.

Yeah. we'll disagree then, because it doesn't strike me as melodramatic at all.

I don't see what was melodramatic at all about Pete and Rory's encounter tbh.

He was smitten, sure, but only in that "Pete sure is pathetic" way. I don't think the show went to any lengths to raise the stakes about some greater emotional depth to what was happening between them.

Other dramas, such as ...Doctor Who? Battlestar Galactica? The Wire?

It trades in a degree of melodrama. Doctor Who has a lot more of it than the other two, though its certainly there in BSG and, to a much much lesser extent, The Wire.

I don't see what was melodramatic at all about Pete and Rory's encounter tbh.

The way they framed the longing looks in the car window, with the omg, her drawing a heart? Those lingering shots on him looking disatisfied? Classic melodramatic subject matter and presentation!

I guess I'm just reading it wrong though.

Except there were so many levels of ambiguity going on there.

It certainly seems like we're reading it differently.

For Pete, it's all real. For Rory (nope, not gonna learn her character's name), it's something different. Melodrama, for me, has everything at the surface.

Not to say that melodrama can't have depth - Sirk used the tropes of the genre to dig deeper (Wyman and Hudson's break-up at the cottage is presented with the same gravity as the kids buying her the television set), but they are tropes that I don't think Mad Men use all that often (though it does on occasion).

honestly it would help if somebody made a list of say, five or six traits that they identify with soap operas. i'll try:

dramaturgy:
1) intensive seriality. individual shows tend not to have a strong sense of structure unto themselves. there is little strongly marked sense of closure or patterning at the level of the single show.
2) each scene builds to an emotional climax, usually ending on a note of suspension or revelation. this is the basic principle by which i think many people identify "soap operas," and yet to some extent it's how all commercial television works. so distinguishing the soap-opera version of this narrative principle is harder than it looks. but i'd argue that any given 45 minutes of a soap opera contain more "situations" (in the dramaturgical sense) or climaxes than other genres of television drama.
3) like melodramas of yore, soap operas place a heavy emphasis on coincidence and fate; by classical standards, an awful lot is--not UNmotivated, but rather unDERmotivated. (you rarely get something entirely unmotivated, although the appearance of barnabus collins in dark shadows would seem to come kind of close.)
4) duration! soap operas are distinguished for being on the air--or at least, designed to be on the air--for a very long time, with some plot arcs covering an incredible span of real and fictional time. the same might be said of TV shows like cheers or friends but by contrast individual episodes of those shows are much more, albeit contingently, discrete. not as "serial." (although by its last few seasons "friends" was getting more serial in this sense.)

visual style:
soap operas are/were famously shot quasi-live (on tape) with very simple blocking, enormous numbers of repeated setups, uniformly high-key lighting, in sets with somewhat spartan or generic decor. of course, once you get prime-time soaps like dallas this isn't necessarily true. of course the fact that we distinguish those series by calling them "prime time soaps" instead of simply "soaps" (and that this calls more to mind than just a time slot) suggests that the production values and visual style of "soaps" is pretty identifiable.

sensibility:
- in keeping with its heritage in melodrama, soap operas promise a heightened emotionality--all the "situations" serve to provide innumerable opportunities for actors to display intense emotions, or simply for the pathos of the drama to be recognized by the audience. lots of screaming--accusations, revelations--in soap opera.
- also, i'd characterize soap opera as intensely logocentric. each scene is essentially a scene of _talking_--hence the simple, repetitive blocking and framing.

not all of these things are always true of every soap, nor should we expect them to be. and surely mad men resembles the stuff described above, but not everything, certainly not everything at once.

if we work from a family resemblance approach and say that something like 'all my children' is an uncontested soap opera, with (i think) all of the qualities i listed above, we can gauge another show's "soap-ness" by seeing how closely it resembles 'all my children'.....

arrrgh there's the old "sirk really gave melodrama depth" meme. zzzzzzzzz. melodrama is a longstanding, if not always proud tradition in the arts that has furnished a gazillion wonderful works, before and after sirk. just to stick w/ american movies, watch waterloo bridge (taylor/leigh version is best) or back street or the crowd etc. etc.

xpost

that's not to deny sirk his place as a stylist etc., but the whole "the melodrama was waiting for sirk to elevate it" story needs to be taken out back and shot.

anyway mad men.

i only mentioned sirk because he's held up as an "auteur" of the genre, and Weiner has auteurish aspirations.

yeah but i actually disagree with the affirmative statement you are making and what it implies, but anyway. mad men.

And I think it's a bit problematic to compare Mad Men to All My Children, simply because of how they are presented and to whom they are being sold. Mad Men doesn't have internal commercial breaks. The structure of All My Children is designed around internal commercial breaks. The audiences are also different.

my affirmative statement is that that "story" exists and is believed by some people!