the most important election of your lifetime: 2012 american general election thread

I've been reading Twelve Caesars by Suetonius. Supreme leaders are something of a criminal class all by themselves, so it is hard to fault Obama specifically for a criminality that is altogether typical of his class. /theyalldoitdefense

it is not at all hard to fault anyone for their wrongdoing, no matter how common it may seem. millions are imprisoned for crimes that tens of millions commit. it is only by demanding extraordinarily honorable behavior, and by being genuinely shocked and outraged by anything less, that we can exert pressure against the typical criminality of those who rule us.

lol are you fucking kidding me

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:08 AM (18 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

by all available evidence Obama has continued if not perfected Bush-Cheney policies of shoot first ask questions later

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:09 AM (18 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

try to read more carefully.

Even without going to prison, Nixon DID NOT "totally get away with what he did." Most educated people today know he was a monster.

― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:43 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And future Justice Department actions had nothing to do with that, surely you'd admit?

Plus there's tons of Nixon image rehab, some of it still ongoing.

Our job as liberals -- in the same way the so-called Tea Party operates -- isn't to worry about "clusterfucks." Our job is to push and push and push and push a Democratic administration into doing as much as we want as possible. "Political clusterfucks" are irrelevant to me -- that's Barack Obama's problem.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:24 AM (18 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a fullbore prosecution of the Bush Administration for war crimes would be the defining act of Obama's presidency. He wouldn't be able to get anything else done for years. You have to pick your battles, and I'd rather he pick health care or energy policy. I'd also rather he didn't legalize assassinations.

He wouldn't be able to get anything else done for years.

How would that be any different than his record so far?

for me, healthcare reform>torture prosecutions. I know some on this board think it's nothing, or worse than nothing, but for me it's a big deal.

and the blowback/mixed results of Bush era torture/spying prosecutions would be even worse than healthcare imo.

We don't know -- it's never been tried! Gerry Ford ruined it for later generations of TV viewers.

The people don't want Bush or his cronies to be prosecuted for anything. The wars might be unpopular, but Obama going against "The Military" (that's how it will be framed) would be disastrous and play right into every bullshit narrative the Right's been pushing about anti-defence lefty 'weaklings' and Americans are so pathetically reverent to the soldiers "WHO SACRIFICE SO MUCH FOR OUR SECURITY". If you can break down "average America"'s saddo blind spot to the utter shittiness of the military then maybe, but it's a country of morons so whatareyagonnado. Also Healthcare definitely more important.

liberals listing priorities >>> liberals condescending to the public

Don't give a shit about condescending to stupid people.

Ford really had a great opportunity; he was from the same political party, he probably wasn't going to be elected President, why not make a fucking stand and not pardon the bastard? Oh well.

Since, I'll repeat, we have never indicted a president and his administration's policies it's purest Chuck Todd (who patiently explained in numbing detail back in 2009 exactly why Obama shouldn't pursue Bush) to pretend we know what's going to happen. Anyway it's useless to protest now because Obama could theoretically be indicted by future administrations for continuing Bush's crimes. Chuck Todd will be around for a long time.

we've never dropped a hydrogen bomb on a city, makes ya think

They should start indicting quick though because time is running out to bring all those dead back to life.

we'll let you pick the bodies of people who've died from inadequate health care.

cheers!

for me, healthcare reform>torture prosecutions.

man, with real respect & love, I have such a hard time understanding this. this is "something I get" = "people who got tortured can go fuck themselves." morally I cannot understand this.

and to be clear about it, that's because "there is a conceivable/imaginable reality in which your health care issues get resolved" is more realizable than "there is a conceivable/imaginable reality in which people who get tortured do not get tortured" - one, while probably practically intractable, isn't as "once you cross this bridge, you can't go back over it" as the other

Prosecuting a past offence doesn't seem nearly as important to me than helping the millions in the country who are presently suffering medically and financially due to the fucking woeful system America has.

there is a quite conceivable reality in which we never torture people again, there is no conceivable reality in which all americans get first world health care in the next 20 years.

if you really think issue #1 is 'more realizable' than issue #2 I dunno what to say.

maybe start by asking yourself how much money there is in the torture business.

iatee!

Our job as liberals -- in the same way the so-called Tea Party operates -- isn't to worry about "clusterfucks." Our job is to push and push and push and push a Democratic administration into doing as much as we want as possible. "Political clusterfucks" are irrelevant to me -- that's Barack Obama's problem.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:24 AM (18 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is OTM. Why are we always playing political Fantasy Football, trying to out-Rahm Rahm, or out-Axelrod Axelrod when the right has proved that the most effective tactic is to demand 100% of what you want all the time?

the right has proven the costs of overreach almost as often as they've proven its benefits

we're not talking about "asking for what you want," anyway. We're talking about criminal investigations of a former President, soldiers and CIA agents going to prison etc. Saying it would be a very ugly, massive clusterfuck isn't Chuck Todd armchair quarterbacking, it's just obviously what would happen.

It's odd to me how man, with real respect & love, I have such a hard time understanding this. this is "something I get" = "people who got tortured can go fuck themselves." morally I cannot understand this.

― decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, June 10, 2012 11:25 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

both things would be nice, one is nicer.

I mean it's a pretty conservative estimate that the number of lives that will be saved by HCR>number of people who were tortured, right?

Anyone read this morning's WaPo story about Obama's fraught relationships with gay and Hispanic lobbying groups?

I mean it's a pretty conservative estimate that the number of lives that will be saved by HCR>number of people who were tortured, right?

― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, June 10, 2012 8:50 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Obama chose one of these things to prioritize over the other. Why does that mean that we have to shut up about the one he neglected? are we on his payroll? he's not actually our friend.

Just seems a bit silly is all

Obama chose one of these things to prioritize over the other. Why does that mean that we have to shut up about the one he neglected? are we on his payroll? he's not actually our friend.

― Hauntingly Unemployed American (President Keyes), Monday, June 11, 2012 1:47 AM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's not what aero's saying, he's saying that prioritizing healthcare reform over torture prosecutions is morally repugnant.

it's a much bigger problem that Obama actively does horrible shit than that he doesn't prosecute people for horrible shit they did in the previous administration.

man, with real respect & love, I have such a hard time understanding this. this is "something I get" = "people who got tortured can go fuck themselves." morally I cannot understand this.

― decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:25 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the thing is, you have health care, you do not have some horrible condition - afaik you are not one of the millions of americans being fucked by our health care system. so you don't actually have some unbiased philosopher's view of the subject and you can't pretend to.

if my little brother, who has a horrible case of arthritis and cannot really...walk around without horrible pain, was also like "yeah, you know, I think we really shoulda gone after the bush guys, it's worth it, I don't care if health care reform never passes even though its existence is the difference between living my entire life in pain and not living my entire life in pain" - if my little brother said that or really, anyone in that kinda situation, you can go look for one and bring them to ilx, if someone in that situation does the philosopher math and agrees with you, then maybe it's a shame-obama path worth exploring.

until then all I see is 'person with health care decides giving millions of people health care not more important than putting some people in jail'

Obama didn't WANT to prosecute the Bushites, that's clear. Even if it was easy.

Let's get back to the bullshit election now.

i think the rich guy is gonna win

but really, is this our moment? is this -our american moment-? you know? like the last past 8 years belongded to those redneck bushies. now is it a time for us fruity npr listening, tea drinking little turds? what kind-of messes do you think this administration will get into? donating more money than they remember having to pbs, npr, and wfmu? "sorry guys w'ell have to raise taxe,s but at least we get to see John adams - dr. atomic livebroundcast courtesy of the met and trhe chubb group. '

― burt_stanton groove machine (burt_stanton), Tuesday, November 4, 2008

it turned out that tea drinking little turds more or less were cool with bombing countries w/ complicated spellings too. who knew??

i think the rich guy is gonna win

more importantly, romney is 6'2" to obama's 6'1"

yeah but can romney ball

it doesn't matter, he's rich AND tall!

it's the unstoppable combo of american politics! we're all fucked!

Ryan Lizza speculating on Obama's second term.

Lizza talking about Reagan in that article with no mention of Iran-Contra. I guess that's how most people remember or are being taught Reagan's legacy.

Digby has been speculating that Obama if re-elected, he is planning on doing a grand bargain deficit and entitlements deal that will take from the middle class and the poor more than from the rich

sounds about right, which is why I despise the term 'entitlement reform.'

Pretty obvious the legacy of Obama's second term, if he gets one, will be a defense of the health care reforms of his first terms against a non-stop barrage of bullshitery, both after the Supreme Court soon weakens it and also once it is fully implemented in 2014. That, and the usual wars and stuff.

my God, the New Yorker uses an umlaut in "reelection."

I thought, though with too great a certainty, Taibbi called a Dem/Bam win properly after the mid-terms: "And then the Democrats will do nothing for four years again."

As Dick Morris, of Fox News, put it in March, “A second term for Obama would bring on a socialist nightmare hellscape as he moves further to the left.”

Socialist nightmare hellscape!

Socialist Nightmare Hellscape landed just outside my Top 35 in the horror-film poll.