the most important election of your lifetime: 2012 american general election thread

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there are definitely a lot of people pissed off about outsourcing/offshoring for whatever reason, and of all political flavors. the issue has a lot of traction if it's pushed, and Romney won't be on the right side of it.

kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:40 (eleven years ago) link

yeah that's how I see it too, which is why despite the 'well what did you accomplish' talk I think occupy will prob go down as a success. the jargon is creeping into the mainstream and in some ways it's inevitable as 'an issue', but I don't think we're at the point where the capital gains tax matters more than romney being a mormon. but I think we'll be there soon enough, and the way this election plays out will be pretty important in that regard.

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:48 (eleven years ago) link

xp

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:48 (eleven years ago) link

The saddest thing about election years is that the harsh arguments against the Republican candidates are only marginally less applicable to the Democratic candidates. Especially on economics or foreign policy -- I'll grant the identity politics ones go much more credibly to the Democrats. But pretending huge differences exist just enables the really piddly concessions to these concerns that follow.

Vic Perry, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:53 (eleven years ago) link

the problem isn't what bain did from 99-02, but that romney utterly refuses to accept any responsbility for it, basically admitting that the shit they did was bad. if he was just like "yeah i'm a cutthroat business man, wouldn't you like one in charge of the country" i'm sure plenty of yahoos wouldn't give a shit about how he won his winnings. instead of taking some reagan/bush cowboy perspective on it, he's going nixon.

da croupier, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:54 (eleven years ago) link

yeah that's otm but I think that's again sorta due to where we are as a country, the transition point between 'he can run as a businessman because people like businessmen who do business' and 'he cannot run as a businessman because people understand what businessmen do'

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:57 (eleven years ago) link

nah i think it's because he's a secretive motherfucker

da croupier, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:57 (eleven years ago) link

yeah except that when his cutthroat business dealings consist mostly of him paying lower tax rates that yr average american it kinda loses some of its swagger, hes not a cowboy hes an accountant, its quite clear

lag∞n, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:59 (eleven years ago) link

no way, dude is the least mysterious person to ever run for president. every mormon's the same person. xp

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:59 (eleven years ago) link

he's an accowntant

I see you, Pineapple Teef (DJP), Sunday, 15 July 2012 20:59 (eleven years ago) link

haha I have elementary school friend at byu who just got his masters in accounting and posted the degree on fb

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:00 (eleven years ago) link

the utah economy must be some crazy accounting pyramid scheme

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:01 (eleven years ago) link

the whole leveraged buyout industry relies heavily on tax arbitrage, doesnt really make anything, and then in his personal life he also excels at dodging taxes, it takes some of the luster off his great sucess

lag∞n, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:01 (eleven years ago) link

not saying growing some nuts would make mitt a winning candidate, but if the guy wants this to be reagan/carter II he can't be acting like a more nixonian dole

da croupier, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:02 (eleven years ago) link

theres no hope its just who he is

lag∞n, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:04 (eleven years ago) link

I don't think he wants to be reagan, iirc he basically never mentioned him in his autobiography

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:04 (eleven years ago) link

If only they'd gone with Trump, they wouldn't have to worry about shady business dealings.

Nixon, Romney Sr., Dole, Strom Thurmond.

clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:04 (eleven years ago) link

I agree with da croupier on just how cornered Romney's arguments are now. This might get sort of fun to follow after all.

Vic Perry, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:09 (eleven years ago) link

this is an interesting piece abt romneys business career from last year http://nymag.com/news/politics/mitt-romney-2011-10 i have issues w/some of the characterization of how how his business worked particularly excluding the expert tax loophole finding and soft pedaling the typically massive transfer of funds, but its a good story none the less

lag∞n, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:20 (eleven years ago) link

such a staggeringly unimportant election

Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:24 (eleven years ago) link

this is otm http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/07/rotting_from_the_top.php

lag∞n, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:26 (eleven years ago) link

Sullivan mentioned the alleged fetus-disposal company too. Is that the smoking gun in this whole thing?

clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 21:59 (eleven years ago) link

i think whatll prob end up happening is the fetus disposal company will turn out to be mitt romney, see how it works is the fetuses are sent to him whether at his home or on the road when hes campaigning or fixing the olympics or what have you and he eats them

lag∞n, Sunday, 15 July 2012 22:02 (eleven years ago) link

well that explains the hair

Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Sunday, 15 July 2012 22:03 (eleven years ago) link

"I'm running for office, for Pete's sake, I can't afford to dispose..." etc.

clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 22:19 (eleven years ago) link

I don't think he wants to be reagan, iirc he basically never mentioned him in his autobiography

last time there was some reveal about how obama had, in first grade, said he wanted to be president. because ambition is so unsightly in mau mau revolutionaries etc.

but has there ever been anyone who wanted to *be* president quite as much as mitt does? he has no particular vision or plan other than the one he thinks will get him elected.

mookieproof, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:28 (eleven years ago) link

seems cliche to say it but there really does feel like a lot of 'entitlement' involved

Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:29 (eleven years ago) link

has there ever been anyone who wanted to *be* president quite as much as mitt does?

Hard to make comparisons, but JFK comes immediately to mind.

Aimless, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:30 (eleven years ago) link

haha true

mookieproof, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:31 (eleven years ago) link

may have been overshadowed by his desire to get laid, tho

mookieproof, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:32 (eleven years ago) link

Nixon was consumed by it, Johnson too. I would guess it applies to most presidents to one degree or another.

clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:32 (eleven years ago) link

Becoming president, that is--I don't think getting laid was high on Nixon's list.

clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:33 (eleven years ago) link

fair enough. i feel that mitt may be most the flabbergasted not to achieve it (if he doesn't) since perhaps henry clay?

mookieproof, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:35 (eleven years ago) link

I dunno, he grew up in the shadow of someone who failed, and it's not like he's never lost a political campaign

iatee, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:39 (eleven years ago) link

Yes--Romney (like Kennedy) belongs to a group that seems to feel it's their birthright. I don't think that was true of Nixon, even though Oliver Stone has him saying, "Nixon was born to do this!" (xpost)

clemenza, Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:40 (eleven years ago) link

Nixon probably thought his birthright was to die from TB

Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Sunday, 15 July 2012 23:45 (eleven years ago) link

I know Kennedy was convinced he'd die young (though not the way he did, obviously). I'm not sure about Nixon...I don't recall anything like that in the bios I've read, but I can't say for sure.

clemenza, Monday, 16 July 2012 00:34 (eleven years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roodiGY0W1A

FIGHTING BACK

Matt Armstrong, Monday, 16 July 2012 00:43 (eleven years ago) link

hey look at these douchebags who are criticizing obama, vote for meeee

Matt Armstrong, Monday, 16 July 2012 00:44 (eleven years ago) link

Other than paying huge fees to the advisors who dreamed up that Romney ad , it probably cost a pittance to produce. Evfen then it wasn't worth the money.

Aimless, Monday, 16 July 2012 00:51 (eleven years ago) link

whiny is not a good look for a nominee

Mad God 40/40 (Z S), Monday, 16 July 2012 00:53 (eleven years ago) link

not to channel rahm or anything (think he said something similar this weekend - just getting back from WV and catching up with "news")

Mad God 40/40 (Z S), Monday, 16 July 2012 00:54 (eleven years ago) link

how was the mystery hole

if you know what i mean

mookieproof, Monday, 16 July 2012 00:57 (eleven years ago) link

From driftglass.Blogspot.com:

Do not panic, fellow parasites and meatbags. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary available anywhere you care to look, Mr. Brooks has filed another column from Capitalist Valhalla to assure us that our elite overlords are not Randite killbots who think of us as wee grapes of labor to be stomped for the wine of maximized profit...or a gobbets of harvestable organs...or a parasitic moochers who use the figleaf of democracy to expropriate their hard-earned wealth and piss it away on our stupid roads. and bridges and cops and teachers.

Not at all.

You will be reassured to know that your elite overlords are, in fact, better than you in every way.

I’d say today’s meritocratic elites achieve and preserve their status not mainly by being corrupt but mainly by being ambitious and disciplined. They raise their kids in organized families. They spend enormous amounts of money and time on enrichment. They work much longer hours than people down the income scale, driving their kids to piano lessons and then taking part in conference calls from the waiting room.

In fact, the only real problem with out elites is that they are just too damned humble to take up the mantle of their elitehood!
The problem is that today’s meritocratic elites cannot admit to themselves that they are elites.

And after a mere 400 words defending of your betters (delivered from the wallow of his own dread that people will discover what a terrible fraud he is), Mr. Brooks uncovers the "real" problem with our elites, which -- surprise! -- also happens to be the same "real" problem he uncovers at the root of every other problem in every other column: bad morals.
Today’s elite is more talented and open but lacks a self-conscious leadership code. The language of meritocracy (how to succeed) has eclipsed the language of morality (how to be virtuous).
All of our problems would just melt away if only we gave up on modernity as a bad job, rolled back the 20th Century entirely and re-entered the good old days of Victoria Regina and the Gilded Age.

No, I am not kidding:
The best of the WASP elites had a stewardship mentality, that they were temporary caretakers of institutions that would span generations. They cruelly ostracized people who did not live up to their codes of gentlemanly conduct and scrupulosity. They were insular and struggled with intimacy, but they did believe in restraint, reticence and service.

Within the frame of a rebuttal to Chris Hayes' book, "The Twilight of the Elites", Mr. Brooks is arguing for a return to 19th century Conservatism -- a massively whitewashed and Disneyfied 19th century Conservatism -- as a tonic to the rise of the "brats" at the "center of the Libor scandal...[and] so many recent scandals" who demonstrate...
...no sense that they are guardians for an institution the world depends on; they have no consciousness of their larger social role.

As always, Mr. Brooks simply ignores those wide swaths of inconvenient history which make his premise sound silly.

For example, during the 1960s and 1970s (the decades of which Mr. Brooks most virulently disapproves) elite institutions of 1960s and 1970s -- which were run in exactly the way Mr. Brooks' approves -- were not challenged or abandoned lightly: they were challenged because they failed us spectacularly and serially and because they lied about their failures. There is no greater, single example of the iron fist within Mr. Brooks velvet-gloved elitism than Richard Nixon's infamous assertion that, if the President of the United States breaks the law, it is not illegal.

Mr. Brooks infantile reading of history and his infatuation with the charms of a genteel paternalistic Conservatism that never existed in reality in the country has no place for the Civil Rights Movement or Vietnam or Watergate, which is why Mr. Brooks routinely skips over the entire era with an eye-rolling dismissal of the Dirty Hippies, along with most of the less happyfun bits of the last couple of centuries.

From Mr. Charlie Pierce:
...

Actually, Wall Street is working exactly the same as it worked 80 years ago, when the Protestant Establishment ran the country into a Depression, and the way it worked in 1873, when the Protestant Establishment ran the country into a panic in which unemployment hit 14 percent, and the way it worked in 1837, when the Protestant Establishment ran the country into a panic in which bank failures in New York alone cost the country $100 million. There were also panics in 1911, 1907, 1901, 1896, 1893, 1890, 1884, 1873, 1857,1825, 1819, 1796, and 1792. Hidden cabals of Zoroastrians were not involved in any of these. The argument is that injustice might provide better outcomes? Thanks, no.

Christopher Hayes of MSNBC and The Nation believes that the problem is inherent in the nature of meritocracies. In his book, "Twilight of the Elites," he argues that meritocratic elites may rise on the basis of grades, effort and merit, but, to preserve their status, they become corrupt. They create wildly unequal societies, and then they rig things so that few can climb the ladders behind them. Meritocracy leads to oligarchy.

'Twas always thus. For details, please see: XVI, Louis The. Chris Hayes is very smart. Read his book.

It's a challenging argument but wrong. I'd say today's meritocratic elites achieve and preserve their status not mainly by being corrupt but mainly by being ambitious and disciplined. They raise their kids in organized families. They spend enormous amounts of money and time on enrichment. They work much longer hours than people down the income scale, driving their kids to piano lessons and then taking part in conference calls from the waiting room.

Of course, you would. That's your answer to every question. The waitress asks you how you want your eggs in the morning, you say, "I don't care, as long as they come from organized families." And, I might add, if you're taking part in your conference calls from "the waiting room" while little Muffy groans through her ballet lessons, it means you have a cking job. And I'd like an offer of proof on that sentence about how Muffy and Trey's parents "work harder than people down the income scale" for the same reason I'd like an offer of proof that Brooks is not a complete dick, since only a complete dick would describe driving your kids to heir extracurriculars as "work."

...

The other giant stink bug in Mr. Brooks' Victorian pomade is Ayn Rand.

The public intellectual who has been more responsible that anyone for the giddy, amoral rapacity and bone-deep contempt for institutions which Mr. Brooks now decries is not Ed Asner (whom Mr. Brooks despises) of Noam Chomsky (whom Mr. Brooks really despises), but the very, very ,very Conservative Ms. Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand, who helped put Mr. Brooks' hero, Ronald Reagan, on the "Government is the Problem" path to the White House.

Ayn Rand, who gave Mr. Brooks' hero, Alan Greenspan, the intellectual terrarium within which he built his entire view of economics.

Ayn Rand, who taught an entire generation of Conservatives that "altruism" was contemptible fascist trickery on a par with Nazism, that all religions were lies and all belief in the divine was a sign of mental illness, that all taxes of any kind are slavery, and that the very idea of stewardship which Mr. Brooks longs for -- the notion of owing some sort of moral obligation to one's fellow human beings, present or future -- was Stalinist twaddle of the lowest order.

"The language of meritocracy (how to succeed)" did not eclipse "the language of morality (how to be virtuous)", Mr. Brooks. Instead, Ayn Rand and her heirs have spent half a century insisting that the language of meritocracy was the language of morality -- that rapacity was virtue -- and that anyone who suggested otherwise was a dirty Commie stooge who hated freedom, liberty and America.

Sound familiar?

And speaking of Mr. Brooks, where exactly was he while this parade of moral, fiscal and political catastrophe was rolling along?

Oh right!  Now I remember.  Mr. Brooks spent the last 30 years trotting along behind that parade every inch of the way, dog-loyal and intrepid, obediently lauding its heroes, pushing its crackpot economics, ruinous tax cuts and disastrous wars, and collecting his 30 pieces of silver for services.

Of course, if you prefer Mr. Brooks' Dream World straight-up and without all of his icky plutocrat-fawning, in 1931 a gentleman named Aldous Huxley drew up some very detailed blueprints of what it would look like.

From "Brave New World"):
... 
"What's the lesson this afternoon?" he asked. 
 "We had Elementary Sex for the first forty minutes," she answered. "But now it's switched over to Elementary Class Consciousness."

The Director walked slowly down the long line of cots. Rosy and relaxed with sleep, eighty little boys and girls lay softly breathing. There was a whisper under every pillow. The D.H.C. halted and, bending over one of the little beds, listened attentively.

"Elementary Class Consciousness, did you say? Let's have it repeated a little louder by the trumpet."

At the end of the room a loud speaker projected from the wall. The Director walked up to it and pressed a switch.

"… all wear green," said a soft but very distinct voice, beginning in the middle of a sentence, "and Delta Children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly colour. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."

There was a pause; then the voice began again.

"Alpha children wear grey They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfuly glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"

The Director pushed back the switch. The voice was silent. Only its thin ghost continued to mutter from beneath the eighty pillows.

"They'll have that repeated forty or fifty times more before they wake; then again on Thursday, and again on Saturday. A hundred and twenty times three times a week for thirty months. After which they go on to a more advanced lesson."

Roses and electric shocks, the khaki of Deltas and a whiff of asafœtida–wedded indissolubly before the child can speak. But wordless conditioning is crude and wholesale; cannot bring home the finer distinctions, cannot inculcate the more complex courses of behaviour. For that there must be words, but words without reason. In brief, hypnopædia.

"The greatest moralizing and socializing force of all time."

The students took it down in their little books. Straight from the horse's mouth.

Once more the Director touched the switch.

"… so frightfully clever," the soft, insinuating, indefatigable voice was saying, "I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because …"

Not so much like drops of water, though water, it is true, can wear holes in the hardest granite; rather, drops of liquid sealing-wax, drops that adhere, incrust, incorporate themselves with what they fall on, till finally the rock is all one scarlet blob.

"Till at last the child's mind is these suggestions, and the sum of the suggestions is the child's mind. And not the child's mind only. The adult's mind too–all his life long. The mind that judges and desires and decides–made up of these suggestions. But all these suggestions are our suggestions!" The Director almost shouted in his triumph. "Suggestions from the State." He banged the nearest table. "It therefore follows …"

President Keyes, Monday, 16 July 2012 01:03 (eleven years ago) link

That Romney ad is being pulled because they apparently didn't get permission to use the clips! Bob Schieffer actually announced on Face the Nation that he didn't authorize it.

timellison, Monday, 16 July 2012 01:11 (eleven years ago) link

Another felony on Romney's resume.

clemenza, Monday, 16 July 2012 01:13 (eleven years ago) link

On Twitter, Halperin wrote, “To echo what NBC News’ Tom Brokaw said in January, when his image and voice were used in a Romney campaign TV ad: ‘I am extremely uncomfortable with the use of my personal image in this political ad. I do not want my role as a journalist compromised for political gain by any campaign.’”

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/07/schieffer-halperin-protest-romney-ad-128999.html

timellison, Monday, 16 July 2012 01:23 (eleven years ago) link

xpost to mookie

i'll describe it on happenin' to our borad 77 thread since it may distract from the serious political discussion on this thread!

Mad God 40/40 (Z S), Monday, 16 July 2012 01:50 (eleven years ago) link

Sullivan posted this picture alongside his round-up of Romney's ongoing troubles:

http://www.delawareliberal.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Romney.Sad_.jpg

I love how whenever a politician hits a bad spot, there's always a photo, often unrelated, of him or her looking dejected. It's like they pose for them ahead of time, so there's something on file when the moment comes.

clemenza, Monday, 16 July 2012 03:15 (eleven years ago) link


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