Consciousness: freaky shit or nbd

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tesseractilingus

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 17:17 (eleven years ago) link

Holopantheism is the logical, metatheological umbrella beneath which the great religions of mankind are unknowingly situated. Why, if there exists a spiritual metalanguage in which to establish the brotherhood of man through the unity of sentience, are men perpetually at each others' throats? Unfortunately, most human brains, which comprise a particular highly-evolved subset of the set of all reality-subsystems, do not fire in strict S-isomorphism much above the object level. Where we define one aspect of "intelligence" as the amount of global structure functionally represented by a given sÎS, brains of low intelligence are generally out of accord with the global syntax D(S). This limits their capacity to form true representations of S (global reality) by syntactic autology [d(S) Éd d(S)]

ledge, Monday, 16 July 2012 17:22 (eleven years ago) link

Can't spell metatheological without lol

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 16 July 2012 17:26 (eleven years ago) link

somehow methinks this whole discussion ties into the idea of whether we have freewill too

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 17:47 (eleven years ago) link

Hint: we don't.

where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Monday, 16 July 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link

Like, what would it even mean if we did? It's incoherent.

where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Monday, 16 July 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link

I took two entire philosophy classes in college btw.

where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Monday, 16 July 2012 17:58 (eleven years ago) link

pfft college is one long philosophy class

the late great, Monday, 16 July 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link

college life, dude, life.

ledge, Monday, 16 July 2012 18:06 (eleven years ago) link

the more you pick apart tihs dish of reality, the more secret shells lies waiting inside to be removed and faced as well - imagine a higgs boson in the shape of an armadillo

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 18:28 (eleven years ago) link

contenderizer if wave function collapse didn't exist you wouldn't have diffraction slit experiments

sure you could. diffraction slit experiments observe physical phenomena, and wave function collapse is a mathematical model that purports to describe what is happening "behind the scenes", so to speak. the physical phenomena do not depend on the mathematically modeled description we attach to them.

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 18:58 (eleven years ago) link

unless that's a sly joke, in which case ha

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link

'Free will' is about as internally coherent as 'free market'.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 16 July 2012 18:59 (eleven years ago) link

there is no way to prove free will is not internally coherent without willing it freely to be so in which case you were destined to think that

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 19:03 (eleven years ago) link

in which case you were destined to think that

As a child I learned that classic gambit of asking a question, then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got...

This line of reasoning merits the same consideration.

Aimless, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:06 (eleven years ago) link

i sometimes think that wave-function collapse cannot exist in the material sense that some seem to say it does. i think it must instead be a mathematical metaphor describing the point where that which we do not yet know (an infinite sea of possibility) transitions into that which we do know (a finite reality).

see this is not correct

if it were so - that the electron really were in one state, rather than a superposition of two possibilites - humans would not see the interference patterns they do when they do diffraction slit experiments

the late great, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:13 (eleven years ago) link

there's probably a different experiment that negates this idea, but you could imagine a light packet leaving some kind of wake in the ether as it traverses space that accounts for the interference pattern.

Philip Nunez, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:15 (eleven years ago) link

As a child I learned that classic gambit of asking a question, then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got, I would ask "why?", then whatever answer I got...

This line of reasoning merits the same consideration.

similarly, attempts to disprove free will remind me of zeno's paradoxes. yeah, okay, the logic is cool, gold star for that, but the arrow and still moves from point a to point b and the hare still overtakes the rabbit. meanwhile, i freely decided that your argument is meaningless and that i will have a taco.

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:18 (eleven years ago) link

if it were so - that the electron really were in one state, rather than a superposition of two possibilites - humans would not see the interference patterns they do when they do diffraction slit experiments

wave function collapse is a mathematical explanation of the observed phenomena. it is not the phenomena itself, and it is not necessarily "correct" in any but an abstract, mathematical sense. though seemingly valid, it may be incomplete or even incorrect in light of what we do not yet know.

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:20 (eleven years ago) link

Speaking of weird theories surprised no one has mentioned Julian Jaynes--so I'm gonna mention him! Totally nuts but one of the more fascinating books I've ever read, and I came across a recent defense of it that deals with a lot of these problems, mentions Nagel, etc.

ryan, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:28 (eleven years ago) link

"we are spirits in the material world"

The Sting

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 19:32 (eleven years ago) link

though seemingly valid, it may be incomplete or even incorrect in light of what we do not yet know.

magic FTW

the late great, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:41 (eleven years ago) link

if it were so - that the electron really were in one state, rather than a superposition of two possibilites - humans would not see the interference patterns they do when they do diffraction slit experiments

Waveform collapse isn't superposition. The many worlds theory thinks it can get by fine without the collapse.

ledge, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:43 (eleven years ago) link

came across a recent defense of it

would love to see that, jaynes always struck me as insane, but wonderful

hot slag (lukas), Monday, 16 July 2012 19:44 (eleven years ago) link

It's from a subscription only journal I think but it's called "What is it like to be nonconscious?" by Gary Williams

ryan, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:48 (eleven years ago) link

think back to those days in 1656 - what was it like?

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

smells like clean spirit: nonconscious effects of scent on cognition and behavior (utrecht university)

the late great, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:51 (eleven years ago) link

what if the voice in my right brain ... is god?

the late great, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:53 (eleven years ago) link

why did albrecht always make all those men have such weird asses in his engravings - herein lies the center of the riddle of time itself

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Monday, 16 July 2012 19:57 (eleven years ago) link

The bicameral stuff is wonderful and insane. I love the image of these glazed early humans wandering about being commanded by the voices in their mind. (Very Snow Crash, that, too)

stet, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:57 (eleven years ago) link

His reading of the old testament is characteristically wild but actually kinda profound and moving if you take it as literary rather than "literal."

ryan, Monday, 16 July 2012 19:59 (eleven years ago) link

It's from a subscription only journal I think but it's called "What is it like to be nonconscious?" by Gary Williams

does this link work outside .edu access?

rods & cones (doo dah), Monday, 16 July 2012 20:01 (eleven years ago) link

i voted 'freaky' but i don't really want to talk to anybody else about it, sorry but this headspace is mine and i'm not sharing

real men have been preparing manly dishes for centuries (elmo argonaut), Monday, 16 July 2012 20:01 (eleven years ago) link

doesn't look like it ;_; xp

stet, Monday, 16 July 2012 20:03 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, no

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 20:04 (eleven years ago) link

magic FTW

― the late great, Monday, July 16, 2012 12:41 PM (22 minutes ago)

harrumph. to admit that we don't know everything and that the map may not be a perfect representation of the territory is not to introduce "magic" into the equation. i don't dispute the mathematical validity of waveform collapse. i do, however, think it might be a mistake to equate the math too closely with what it attempts to describe. to the extent that they attempt to describe material realitity, mathematical constructs are abstract analogies, after all. we risk the pitfalls of argument by analogy (to refer back to our previous discussion) when we rely too heavily on abstract mathematical modeling as the provider of "real truth" about what is actually happening in the concrete, material world.

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 20:12 (eleven years ago) link

wait what is this conversation even about now?

where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Monday, 16 July 2012 21:46 (eleven years ago) link

fuck if i know

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 21:53 (eleven years ago) link

ok then let's start over

where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Monday, 16 July 2012 21:56 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, good plan. i'm going with "freaky shit" this time. shit is some freaky shit.

contenderizer, Monday, 16 July 2012 22:03 (eleven years ago) link

holy shit, i can't believe gary came up in this thread. dude is the husband of one of my best friends. i always found his affinity for jaynes quirky at best, but he is dedicated and works hard at his fascinating new theories, gotta give him that.

does this link not work?: http://wustl.academia.edu/GaryWilliams/Papers/156099/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_Nonconscious_A_Defense_of_Julian_Jaynes

karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Monday, 16 July 2012 22:35 (eleven years ago) link

"disagreeing with Ned Block" must be one of the #1 most popular philosophical activities

where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Monday, 16 July 2012 22:53 (eleven years ago) link

That link works, and yeah I got some issues. Ok it's a semantic problem but his use of 'consciousness' is highly unorthodox. 'J-Consciousness' might be a useful distinction but to call that and that alone consciousness and say that animals are non-conscious and so are we 90% of the time is highly misleading and unhelpful. And his dismissal of the explanatory gap/hard problem is perfunctory and unconvincing.

ledge, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 08:24 (eleven years ago) link

but to call that and that alone consciousness and say that animals are non-conscious and so are we 90% of the time is highly misleading and unhelpful.

yeah, this was my main problem with it when i first read it, iirc. i think he claims that only consciousness + language/symbolic thinking is actually consciousness, and then uses bicamerality to bypass an actual rigorous history of humanity's development of language and how that would've developed the human mind (i.e. a genealogy of language.)

karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Tuesday, 17 July 2012 13:04 (eleven years ago) link

I've never read Jayne directly but I can see why people think the bicameral stuff is wonderful & insane, some of the just-so stories in that paper lean heavily towards the latter though.

By essentially telling ourselves through a linguistically structured neural command to “keep at it” when engaged in a time consuming task (such as sharpening rocks), humans were able to develop cultural skills unparalleled throughout the rest of the animal world.

orly_owl.jpg

ledge, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 13:17 (eleven years ago) link

orly is a god

The Cheerfull Turtle (Latham Green), Tuesday, 17 July 2012 13:20 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, i'm really bothered that he was only mentioned and not actually pictured there. he looks like this:

http://anongallery.org/img/3/5/o-rly-orly-owl.jpg

contenderizer, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 15:17 (eleven years ago) link

that should be the blurb on the back of Jaynes' book.

ryan, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 15:18 (eleven years ago) link

i've always meant to read TOOCITBOTBM (pronounced "toccitibottom") cuz my parents were impressed by it once upon a time. same with godel, escher, bach.

contenderizer, Tuesday, 17 July 2012 15:24 (eleven years ago) link


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