Lady Gaga - ARTPOP [2012]

sorry, that's kind of full of holes - though i stand by the final takeaway

No, I can follow you. We just disagree. I was and am contemputous, for example, of "Born This Way" precisely because of the queer pride thing.

Also, stepping away from the music and just talking persona/star-text - - I argued on the main Gaga thread that a lot of her appeal as Big Pop Weirdo was that people admired/envied the amount of fun she seemed to get away with, with the crazy costumes and goofy interview answers and all that kind of thing. You wanted to be that bold; she made it very appealing. The Born This Way era, and I'm just spitballing, but she didn't necessarily make it seem as fun to be Gaga. The videos were bleaker, darker, Serious Artist Is Serious affairs, and the arch themes, personal symbolism, German impressions, and so on of the music contributed to a sense of "she's leaving us behind" - - - - maybe? Really have nothing with which to back this up. Just generally she seemed less vivid and colorfully and full of fun.

Did you think "Marry The Night" wasn't fun

i didn't, prob one of my 2 or 3 least fav songs on the album

"Marry the Night" grew on me, I'd put it in the top quartile, but the video was exhausting if I'm thinking of the right one. Not Fun. I think "You and I" is the only straight up, no shenanigans, swing-for-the-bleachers crossover attempt. Pretty sure it'll be the long-term catalogue seller from this set (besides Born This Way).

btw here's my previous remarks on gaga's "fun factor" if it adds anything:

I think the fandom for her is still more visceral than you suggest, for many people... if Swift is best friend, Gaga is platonic girl crush. People want to BE her because she's so COOL and gets away with doing strange and wonderful things that you are too shy and ordinary to do (until you go to college and join some burlesque troupe or whatever). The details of what those things are - the bewildering forest of her "aesthetic self-construction" - provide lots of interest and give you something to link to almost daily on Facebook ("Grammy dress! heart gaga").... but people think she's *awesome*, not just intellectually interesting, etc.

Besides, I mean, again setting aside star-texts just for the moment, look at the songs - "Eh, Eh" for example is almost completely lacking any arch-ness and irony, and the dress-up for the video is familiar imagery of hyper-Little-Italy-land, about as elaborate as Swift putting on nerd glasses. The narrative is a completely straightforward romantic situation - she had a nice romance going, met somebody else, is excited about this somebody else, and is still kinda bittersweet about having to say goodbye to the other person. That story is WELL-worn, lyrics aren't anything to write home about... but I'll go ahead and say that it feels more real and relatable to me than the Swift songs. The song didn't chart and this isn't the thread for it, but for me it's all in the title/hook - there's a lot of lived experience packed into those dismissive "Eh"s that just clicks with me. I've been there.

Or "Pokerface," which I dunno if this got run into the ground upthread, but this is a song about pretending to enjoy sex when it's kinda ehh and you'd rather be with someone else. (A woman, it turns out, but that's not heavily implied in the lyrics.) Not saying Swift has to write songs about fucking to get a "serious songwriter" pass - just that I think a lot of people who like this song like it because it's an experience they can very directly relate to. Plenty more may like it just because of the great chorus and the funny pu-pu-pu-poker face hook (that's where I got on board anyway) but the material is a TOTAL "real life" situation.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, February 3, 2010 11:31 AM Bookmark

I think Gaga's appeal at street level has very little to do with anybody thinking her 'art' is particularly sophisticated, but a lot to do with people admiring and envying the amount of FUN she seems to get away with having. It's a different kind of liberationary politics than a lot of people may be ready to get down with, and I'm open to the idea that it's also kind of vacuous and lacking in content or complexity, but I basically appreciate what she's doing.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:37 PM Bookmark

...and basically, I feel like Born This Way, beyond a couple of the singles, kind of was lacking in all of the above. I'm more than willing to hold out hope that the new album reverses this course - but I've worn this into the ground, sorry y'all.

I think Gaga's appeal at street level has very little to do with anybody thinking her 'art' is particularly sophisticated, but a lot to do with people admiring and envying the amount of FUN she seems to get away with having. It's a different kind of liberationary politics than a lot of people may be ready to get down with, and I'm open to the idea that it's also kind of vacuous and lacking in content or complexity, but I basically appreciate what she's doing.

Sure -- that's the appeal of good pop artists, which was why the sloganeering of "Born This Way" grossed me out.

That Gaga's been an uneven pop artist is beside the point, I suppose.

"Marry the Night" grew on me, I'd put it in the top quartile, but the video was exhausting if I'm thinking of the right one. Not Fun. I think "You and I" is the only straight up, no shenanigans, swing-for-the-bleachers crossover attempt. Pretty sure it'll be the long-term catalogue seller from this set (besides Born This Way).

― Doctor Casino, Monday, August 6, 2012 9:04 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh man "You And I" was the biggest botch of them all, worst video AND nobody really likes the studio version as much as the live version. "Edge of Glory" will definitely always outsell it.

*ahem* i like the studio version much more than the live version. the sheen on "you and i" is magnificent whereas on too much of the rest of the album, it is drastically over-polished.

but the video is one of the worst i have ever seen.

The main mistake with the Born This Way era, was not releasing "Edge Of Glory" as the second single. It would have been so huge after "Born This Way" the single.
"Judas" was a bit too weird and too similar to "Bad Romance". It flopped and was the first time Gaga stumbled. So they rushed the release of "Edge" with a disapointing video that seemed like no effort went into making, that made Gaga's star dim a bit and the album lost momentum.

Yeah, "Edge of Glory" is probably the only one that will still be in the conversation 10 years from now. Except "Born This Way," which will be annoying the Alfred's of the world for the rest of their lives, no doubt.

Part of the problem with so blatantly aping an icon is that you zoom through their career trajectory before racking up the catalog. The self-serious "persona" play and Tony Bennett collaborations while promoting your SECOND album? It's like she skipped a decade and went straight from disco dolly to Dita.

"Marry the Night" grew on me, I'd put it in the top quartile, but the video was exhausting if I'm thinking of the right one.

It should have been all cars and fire and none of the other stuff.

SHARTPOP

the one thing i find interesting about BTW is how everyone agrees it's patchy, a mess etc, but everyone's favourites and least favourites are completely different - absolutely no consensus WHICH the stand-out tracks are.

don't think it harmed or diminished her reputation at all - maybe a sense of biting off more than she could chew, but a bloated over-ambitious misstep will actually shore up one's reputation in a way more than a generic playing-it-safe album, and the tropes she played with all pretty much enhanced the "gaga brand". and the music wasn't disastrous enough for it to be seen as an embarrassment at all, apart from arguably the title track. pop fans have a tendency to impart way too much significance to one album's quality or commercial performance. if SHARTPOP is another bloated misstep then we can talk.

it still boggles my mind that people like "Judas"

the one thing i find interesting about BTW is how everyone agrees it's patchy, a mess etc, but everyone's favourites and least favourites are completely different - absolutely no consensus WHICH the stand-out tracks are.

yeah this is definitely its saving grace. we never did poll its tracks after talking about doing so a bunch, did we?

it still boggles my mind that people like "Judas"

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:00 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

ha – I suspect that if we polled BTW all of us who consider the thing a mess and who have different allegiances may still fall behind "The Edge of Glory" or (eek) "Judas."

"The Edge of Glory" is IMO the best-formed, most recognizably consensus-capable song on the album. Most of the others are either too idiosyncratic or too much of a total rip-off of "Express Yourself"

i think there's some really good songs on there that are neither. but yes "Edge" is definitely the easy default.

it still boggles my mind that people like "Judas"

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:00 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

― Clarke B., Wednesday, August 8, 2012 12:12 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i like the way it sounds a bit like uptown girl, the 'like a prayer'esque faux religious iconography and solemnity (feels like going to church when you're four years old and don't understand but enjoy smelling incense and feeling strongly and purposefully spiritual), the contrast between the harsh caterwauling verses and the sticky sweet chorus, and the raptor doin the twist dance routine.

i kind of feel like i can hear exactly how "the edge of glory" could be GREAT but it doesn't quite get there, something a bit too self-conscious about how it goes for the EPIC jugular, so it winds up as a slightly unsatisfying good instead. "judas" isn't my fav but it's fun to listen to when you're drunk

it'd be an interesting poll to do, think i'd go for "scheiße"

yeah it's weird like, i always related Edge Of Glory to Don't Stop Believin, and i think it's really cool that this comparison could even be made, but Edge never reached the same level of impact for me

although intellectually i acknowledge it as a fucking amazing song

don't stop believin' is like the beatles and edge of glory is like rain: a tribute to the beatles

i didn't realize so many others found this album messy! now i feel less bad about not liking anything on it other than "edge"

there's no doubt that BTW diminished her.
from "bad romance" through the release of "judas," ppl were over-the-top evangelists.
after that, the public conversation cooled off even as she was having her big hits from the album.
almost seems like something was supposed to happen, that didn't end up happening... so, everybody adjusted their goalposts.

that said, most artists would kill to be as "diminished" as she's become!

Yeah, I'd co-sign that.

Conversation tends to ebb when it's third or fourth single time anyway. Plus, most critics had already written their 800-word exegeses on the album in May.

Agree that it usually does, but... conversation had only been building through the FM singles before BTW, it seemed to me.

i have a theory that every super popular artist has a "New Jersey" - like Bon Jovi's album New Jersey -- where it's still super popular and even more popular than the albums that preceded it but there's some sense that the gig is up.

^^^
that'd be a nice thread (if it doesn't already exist)!

I remember those 800-word New Yorker think pieces on Slippery When Wet.

you must have been a precocious child.

I think we're talking about a couple different things here though - - - critical "interest" is a different thing than the excitement of the kids in the street, y'know? And generally I've been talking about the latter with regard to a sense of Gaga's star declining. It's totally subjective and impressionistic but it just feels to me like people were less jazzed after the BTW era than before.

Anyway so - - - - do we know anything else about this new album? Some ridiculous-sounding tracklists have come and gone from Wiki, but they all seem fraudulent, which may or may not be a sad thing:

Tracklisting

"ARTPOP (A Really Tasty Plate Of Pasta)"
"Nothin' On But The Radio"
"Italian Girl From New York City"
"Marinara and Diamonds (In my tea cup)"
"Dinner At Joanne's"
"Weave Snatchin'"
"Nutella Queen"
"Sip That Tea (Bitch)"
"Dorothy! Dot! The Decay Is Coming!!!"
"Touchup Time"
"Italian from Italy"
"The 200th Betrayal"
"Changing Skies"
"Apple Pie"
"Medoner"
"Shut Down The Club (ft. Katy Perry, Kanye West, Beyonce and David Guetta)"
"Bye Bye BoomKack"
"Part Of Me in 3D"
"Almond Milk in Oprah's Tea"
"Girl Gone Gaga"
"DOROTHY!! WAKE UP!! DOT! THE DECAY IS ALMOST HERE!"
"Express Yourself"
"Little Medonsters"
"SmartPop"
"DOROTHY OMG! DOT!!! COME ON! Hurry UP! The Decay is ALMOST HERE!!!!!"
"LVU GAGA"
"DOROTHY DOT YOU LITTLE INSIDER, please GET UP! I CAN SEE THE DECAY!"
"Snippet"
"Leaked"
"Where Have You Been (Colby O'Donis)"
"Hot 100"
"Tanisha (Get The F*** Up)"
"Lolga (Laugh A Little)"
"Did You Know? (I'm Italian)"
"Stefani Germanottaphobe"
"Me & T (Private In Public)"
"Dancing With Mommy (ft. Cynthia G)"
"Run The Club (ft. LMFAO, Pitbull, Ryan Tedder and Travie McCoy)"
"Cominq 4 Carly Ray Jeepson"
"Call Me Maybe (ft. Luc Carl & Boomkack)"

"Express Yourself"
"Little Medonsters"
"Run The Club (ft. LMFAO, Pitbull, Ryan Tedder and Travie McCoy)"
"Cominq 4 Carly Ray Jeepson"
"Call Me Maybe (ft. Luc Carl & Boomkack)"

lol yeah no

would give "Nutella Queen" a go though. But "You and I" is my favorite BTW track so I may be out there on the margins.

btw dudes i was like a kid when New Jersey came out...but even me as just a fan, i kinda *wanted* to like New Jersey as much, and there was some sense that it was a "big deal" and i should like it and i bought the cassette but i think we all could sense it just wasn't *as good*...i'm not sure what critics thought but i bet they did, i didn't read reviews or have access to them.

so i wasn't talking critically.

but anyway like as time goes by you'll find that people going to gaga show would be way more jazzed about like "bad romance" than "edge of glory"...

like I'm trying to think of another example....Graduation is Kanye's New Jersey.....that's another example....

You're black, white, beige, POLLa descent: Lady Gaga - Born This Way (poll)

and people get on me about MY poll titles!

(j/k, i am curious to see how this one turns out...)

Graduation is Kanye's New Jersey.....that's another example....

I think it's a stronger case to say 808s was his New Jersey

i think of a band's New Jersey as their bigger but hollower victory lap album so def Graduation not 808s

"bigger" meaning bombast not necessarily sales

NJ had five top tens including two #1's and except for "Bad Medicine" they've all vanished from the face of the earth

fuck that noise "I'll Be There For You" will always be there for me

"Born To Be My Baby" and "Lay Your Hands On Me" are definitely arena filler though

all i remember about "living in sin" is that the video seemed risque when i last saw it in elementary school

omg I had completely blocked "Living In Sin" from my memory