the most important election of your lifetime: 2012 american general election thread

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/rep-paul-ryans-pricey-pinot-noir.php?ref=fpa

Wondering how much the fact that Ryan signed the Norquist pledge will be an issue.

Wait, doesn't the so-called "Ryan plan" include massive tax increases? How does that square?

Or is "eliminate deductions" OK w/ Norquist pledge because the extra money you're paying on your taxes isn't actually more money you're paying, but more money you're not NOT paying, so that's totally different?

the pledger promises to "oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and to oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates."

This time, they're piling on immediately. Probably the right thing to do, but it does carry a risk.

for whom?

the guy under the pile i imagine

The obvious risk to me is that any time you overshoot the mark, you risk eliciting some sympathy for the person you're trying to destroy. Ryan is young and earnest and still, for most voters I would guess, mostly a blank slate. When they go after Romney aggressively, that's fine--Romney is never going to be a sympathetic figure under any circumstances. I'm simply saying that with Ryan, you never know. I believe there's a small risk.

lol srsly u guys, a. doesnt matter, b. lol ryan

What's this "It's a confidential vetting process" business? Like there's some OFFICIAL reason why Ryan can't answer the question of how many years of tax returns he turned over to the Romney campaign.

No, except if he says how many it will make Mitt look like he's hiding something. They've agreed to share two years worth, but I expect the pressure will eventually become so great that those other years will get out either voluntarily or "involuntarily".

more fun facts about Ryan (from the NY Times)

The nation’s first Generation X vice-presidential candidate, he is an avowed proponent of free markets whose family has interests in oil leases. But he counts Rage Against the Machine, which sings about the greed of oil companies and whose Web site praises the anti-corporate Occupy Wall Street movement, among his favorite bands.

He also voted for the bank bailout known as TARP and for President George W. Bush’s prescription drug benefit for the elderly, both of which are loathed by Tea Party activists. And even as he delved more deeply into libertarian economic theory in college, his tuition was partially paid by the Social Security benefits he received after his father died.

And even as he delved more deeply into libertarian economic theory in college, his tuition was partially paid by the Social Security benefits he received after his father died.

i think this is specious and a little low tbh

Watching the Sunday shows yesterday, it was amazing the degree to which Ryan dominated the conversation, even allowing for the day-after effect. I'm not sure that that will subside much, either. Romney may start to disappear from his own ticket, which probably isn't a bad thing for him right now.

i think this is specious and a little low tbh

wanting to deny someone the system you benefitted from yourself is pretty much cut'n'dried hypocrisy, no?

Watching the Sunday shows yesterday, it was amazing the degree to which Ryan dominated the conversation

wtf? do you even understand the dynamics of the spectator sport you're addicted to?

wanting to deny someone the system you benefitted from yourself is pretty much cut'n'dried hypocrisy, no?

lots of people think the tax deduction on mortgage interest is a bad idea but everybody takes it, and i wouldn't call them hypocrites

even allowing for the day-after effect--i.e., I realize there's going to be lots on Ryan, but I'm trying to place it in some kind of context. Seeing as I actually watch these shows, it might stand to reason that I could better gauge that than someone who doesn't. Jesus, Morbius--if you're not interested in this stuff, I don't know why you feel so compelled to comment. I think you missed the whole point of my post last week about me not going on rugby and Iron Maiden threads.

xp dude you need to go look up that word in the dictionary, then.

also, taking something while thinking it's a bad idea is a different thing from taking something and then actively preventing anyone else from having it, no?

thinking it's a bad idea and then working to end it doesn't seem like hypocrisy to me

anyway, not even libertarianism means you have to be a sucker. take the money!

thinking it's a bad idea and then working to end it doesn't seem like hypocrisy to me

well, yes, obviously, that's not where the contradiction lies, is it?

fwiw the 'ryan plan' has been billed as ending medicare (which is true) but it is more savage to the discretionary public sector. i don't know if ryan has any grand plans for the social security death benefit.

Ironically, Ryan came to national attention trying to dismantle the very program that helped him go to the college of his choice, pushing an even more radical version of President Bush’s Social Security privatization plan, which failed.

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/12/paul_ryan_randian_poseur/

xp dude you need to go look up that word in the dictionary, then.

ok, i looked it up and got

"a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion"

Not seeing it.

Is every wealthy liberal who campaigns for increases in the highest income tax a hypocrite, unless they voluntarily write big checks to the US treasury? Rush Limbaugh thinks so and maybe so do you, but I don't.

Has any congressperson or senator refused gov't health insurance?

Has Ryan ever been asked whether he has benefited from the federal government programs he wants to cut?

After his government-subsidized out-of-state education, the pride of Janesville left college and went to work for government, where he’s spent his entire career,

The federal government is bad and the only way he can end its badness is by benefiting from it

I don't think there's a lot of weight in the argument. Yes it's bullshit that he benefited from a program that now exists but it veers close to the Right's "If you want to raise taxes why don't you just voluntarily pay more?" argument against the Left - which is different, sure, but not disimilar.

When I pointed out to Ryan that government spending programs were at the heart of his home town's recovery, he didn't disagree. But he insisted that he has been misunderstood. "Obama is trying to paint us as a caricature," he said. "As if we're some bizarre individualists who are hardcore libertarians. It's a false dichotomy and intellectually lazy." He added, "Of course we believe in government. We think government should do what it does really well, but that it has limits, and obviously within those limits are things like infrastructure, interstate highways, and airports."

The fact is that his "budget" will demolish federal spending on those very things

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/paul-ryan-romney-vp-pick-11562917

That's quoting from a Ryan Lizza New Yorker profile

Ryan is young and earnest and still, for most voters I would guess, mostly a blank slate.

um

ie he isn't widely known, and he isn't widely liked either

I don't see anything in there about "Don't know yet." I just find it hard to believe that people have such set views on him already--maybe I'm wrong, ore maybe that's general dislike/distrust of Romney spilling over.

Repub convention in 2 weeks, so excited!!!!11!

This f'in guy:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/mitt-romney-shouts-down-heckeler-at-wisconsin-rally/

As Romney began addressing the seriousness of America’s unemployment rate, he was shouted down by a group of protesters in the audience. Romney supporters in attendance immediately responded to the hecklers with chants of “U.S.A., U.S.A.”

“You see, young man, this group here is respectful of other people being heard,” Romney shot back at the protester. “And you ought to find yourself a different place to be disruptive because here we believe in listening to people with dignity and respect.”

(Although that second sentence - supporters in attendance immediately responded to the hecklers with chants of “U.S.A., U.S.A.” - is the worst part about the story.)

You say he's not widely liked, and the pundit class being excited about it is one thing, but donations have increased.

From people who would have donated anyway, I imagine. They just got their renewal notice from Romney on Saturday morning.

On reflection I don't think I have much respect for any moral framework which doesn't, at one point on another, include "Step 5: Be a sucker"

Like Dylan and the Beatles skipping Woodstock, the convention will not be everything that it could be:

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/sarah-palin-will-not-speak-at-rnc-convention

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

although maybe this means she will be roaming the convention floor savaging unsuspecting delegates, in which case YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

Absorbing and duplicating them, like Agent Smith.

savaging unsuspecting delegates

gross dude

A poll that contradicts the one Shakey Mo posted earlier:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/positive-views-of-ryan-jump-higher-after-pick/2012/08/13/32251614-e55b-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_blog.html

It's too soon--after a few weeks you'll better know how Ryan's going over.

Haven't read those last few links, so sorry if this addressed.

Romney drawing a distinction between his budget plan and Ryan's budget plan on 60 Minutes seems strange to me. Ryan is largely known (where he is known) for that bold, ideological budget, so if you're not going to incorporate that into your campaign...what the hell is the upside of Ryan? Were there a lot of undecideds/independents clamouring for a 40-something white guy?

romney is inviting the right to elect and then assassinate him maybe

There was no strategically better choice that I know of. It's like questioning having Romney at the top of the ticket and then looking around and seeing that his competition was Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

But there were safer choices, no? He's already on the defensive about Ryan's budget.

maybe he's found a way to integrate Locutus of Ryan into his matrix

I guess he gets to choose how much he owns it, and Ryan can't argue back.

It was Mitt's gift to headline writers. "Ryan's Hope"..."The Ryan Express"..."Ryan's Daughter" (that one might sit idle).