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Obligatory Ableton horror story...

I've been using Ableton in live settings, mainly for short sets, for about eight months. Recently I landed a couple of weekly residencies, one of which is geared towards more eclectic music programming. I decided to try Ableton for a full five hour night last Friday with disastrous results. About an hour into it, the program started randomly dropping out the sound. The dropouts ranged from microsecond glitches to 1 or 2 seconds of dead silence. Really embarrassing.

I bought Serato the next day, played at the club that night and had zero problems. knock. on. wood. Ableton has been relegated to the studio computer only.

I can speak from personal experience when I say that there's definitely a different energy with Ableton mixing in a live setting. The best way I can describe it is that the crowd > DJ feedback loop feels mediated by the computer. I don't get that feeling with Serato or Final Scratch though.

jeffery (jeffery), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link

dude played with us last week and used serato.

pretty much is the exact same as someone on the decks with real vinyl, as far as I could see.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:29 (eighteen years ago) link

The dropouts ranged from microsecond glitches to 1 or 2 seconds of dead silence.

that sounds like you need more ram. thankfully this has only happened to me once in recent memory and that was the other week in texas where there was so much bass vibration in the booth that my powerbook started freaking out. thankfully they were a very forgiving crowd.

there is a different energy from using ableton in a live setting which is why i use vinyl too but i think once you know your way round the software you learn little ways to make it sound, um, er, more jacking i guess is the best way to describe it.

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm glad i don't dj. that and the fact i only have one turntable. and there's not much call to play daf 7" singles to the public

frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

so i'll start by fixing all them so they are rigidly in time

cool! do you do this by manually cutting and pasting bits of the wav/data? does Ableton quantize the file so you know where to reposition snares or whatever by looking as well as hearing?

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

ableton uses a thing called warp marking where the audio file is kind of fluid. you literally drag and move the beats one at a time until they are lined up with the grid of a rigidly in time 4/4 beat. i usually have a basic 4/4 beat playing along to check i have got it totally right audibly as well as visually. ableton 5 has a function that does this automatically but i find it a bit hit or miss and prefer to do it manually. i should point out that it is incredibly tedious to do but worth it for the results.

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

The process stir is talking about is explained here:
http://www.joshvon.com/tech/rock-solid-warping-101.htm

Someone posted this a while ago, I still had it in my history. It's sadly the only thing I know about mixing on ableton.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link

and here's what a warped file looks like. this was 'hallelujah' by can and required literally hundreds of beats to be moved about.

http://www.optimo.co.uk/hallelujah.jpg

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:44 (eighteen years ago) link

See folks, being a dj isn't all glamour.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link

xxpost

it sounds tedious... but handy! I'm surprised they haven't worked out a way to use Recycle! technology to basically learn and do it for you.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I've put in tracks and ableton has put the warp markers in the right place, but this has generally been 4/4 house/techno music with absolutely no deviations/bits where it breaks down throughout the whole track and where the 4/4 kick starts at the very beginning of the track. Other than that it seems to be really unreliable.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link

i spent the last year learning how to mix "the old fashioned way" with two records and a crossfader, andi'm quite the luddite when it comes to software. but all this shit sounds really interesting and is making me think i need to get on board...

most of the guys i know around here do entire sets in traktor. i tried it a few times but couldn't get used to "seeing" a track to cue it up as opposed to "hearing" it. abelton has hardware that you can do this with, right?

stir- when you were talking about "fixing" a track and replacing beats.. is this what i'm hearing during "kiss me again" on that mix of yours up at ourdisco? the way a dance beat lines up with it for 8 or 16 bars and then drops out... is that something you "fix" ahead of time, and not drop in live?

also- is that the hallelujah edit that was on beatsinspace over the summer?

grady (grady), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link

most of the guys i know around here do entire sets in traktor. i tried it a few times but couldn't get used to "seeing" a track to cue it up as opposed to "hearing" it. abelton has hardware that you can do this with, right?
You can listen ahead with traktor as easily as you can with vinyl. It works on the same principles except with the added luxury that you can skip back and forth to preset markers on the track. Only problem with traktor, which has stopped me ever playing out with it (they only way I could play out as I can't beatmatch with vinyl and I'm shit with ableton), is that there is a kind of snooty, elitist response to it because it's so simple to use.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link

yeh, didn't really understand Traktor, although i'd like to. As you say, it's almost so simple to use it destroys my brain!

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Stir, where were you playing in Texas?

jeffery (jeffery), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Other than that it seems to be really unreliable.

rubbish, it's the most reliable software i've ever used.

stir- when you were talking about "fixing" a track and replacing beats.. is this what i'm hearing during "kiss me again" on that mix of yours up at ourdisco? the way a dance beat lines up with it for 8 or 16 bars and then drops out... is that something you "fix" ahead of time, and not drop in live?

no, no. i would have added that on top live. i never pre prepare actual mixes. i meant i 'fixed' it so it stayed rigidly in time and when i say replacing beats, i more mean putting an additional kik or some sub bass on it so it 'kicks' a bit more than the original. as i play a lot of old records and new records, i have to do this as the production on the old records is so different that alongside the new ones they would sound a little weak over a soundsytem.

also- is that the hallelujah edit that was on beatsinspace over the summer?

i'm not sure but very possibly.

jeffrey, i played in austin two weeks ago.

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Other than that it seems to be really unreliable.

rubbish, it's the most reliable software i've ever used.
It was in reference to its automatic warp marker setting.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:13 (eighteen years ago) link

oops, sorry. yes, you are totally right about that.

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:14 (eighteen years ago) link

so "kiss me again" was "fixed" ahead of time so the drums were perfectly in time.... making it easier to line up the other dance beat under it... right?

grady (grady), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:14 (eighteen years ago) link

exactly. me not so great at explaining tings.

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:15 (eighteen years ago) link

or answering phones *

frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:22 (eighteen years ago) link

shut it frenchie. you always phone at the crack of dawn.

stirmonster (stirmonster), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:23 (eighteen years ago) link

but it'd only be the crack of dawn if you were in the west coast of america, or is that your body's way of telling you to slow down? *

frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 18:27 (eighteen years ago) link

You can listen ahead with traktor as easily as you can with vinyl. It works on the same principles except with the added luxury that you can skip back and forth to preset markers on the track.

this may sound horribly ignorant of me... but how do i do this with headphones if my computer only has one headphone jack....? do i need some kind of external hardware?

grady (grady), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link

that is EXACTLY what i was wondering - someone explain!

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link

you need a soundcard with multi outs. it's the only logical way this would work. ie 6 channels - 2 for 'deck 1'' 2 for 'deck 2' and 2/poss 1 for monitoring. you'd also need some way of mixing this which makes dj'ing with just your laptop unworkable with traktor. just your laptop, your external soundcard and your 8/10/12 channel mixing desk. mind you, i've never used it.

frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:42 (eighteen years ago) link

This thread is really interesting. I've just got one quick question: for all the DJs out there who use laptops for live DJing, which program do you rate as the best? I currently use Mixmeister 6 Pro and find it perfect for my needs - I prefer to see the waveform and meddle about with it - but Ableton is mentioned by everyone. Am I likely to find Ableton much better for live DJing?

The only annoyances with MM6 are that you can't change the pitch and can't do that nifty 'unplug the record deck and let the record slow to a halt' trick. I use Acid and Cool Edit to make remixes and re-edits.

And Dog Latin and Grady, yeah you need an external soundcard. Plug that into your mixer via the USB port, then use the internal soundcard (headphone socket) to listen to mixing ahead, as your monitor.

(xpost)

Affectian (Affectian), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 20:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually you don't need an external or 2nd soundcard at all. As frenchbloke says you can prelisten (cue) tracks using headphones plugged into the rear outputs of a 5.1 compatible soundcard. Because of latency issues you are going to need to find, install and configure ASIO drivers compatible with your card. It's a bit of a chore but doesn't require a computer science degree.
I think Ableton and Traktor are becoming the default standards for digital performance mixing. From my experience Ableton requires more time to learn and also you need to spend significant time prior to a set putting warp markers into your tracks. With Traktor you can jump into mixing mp3s immediately if you have an previous experience with turntables.
I think Ableton offers a more possibilities for making interesting complex mixes HOWEVER I hear Traktor 3.0 added a lot of effects and gadgets so it might be getting up there too.

harshaw (jube), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:32 (eighteen years ago) link

All my mixes are vinyl + cdj + fx + c-loops sampler. I really want to try getting into laptop stylee mixing, but I can't afford a nice laptop. I can't afford a nice laptop because I spend too much money on vinyl. It's a vicious circle.

tylero (tylero), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:36 (eighteen years ago) link

the ones I've posted are all vinyl recorded on Audacity. I'm interested in the Ableton / Serato stuff but am sort of wary of the endless possibilities like Ronan was saying (plus the expense, since it's really just a hobby for me)

Renard (Renard), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:40 (eighteen years ago) link

I can't afford a nice laptop because I spend too much money on vinyl. It's a vicious circle. OTM!

grady (grady), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:43 (eighteen years ago) link

after al this talk I think I will download the Traktor demo for Mac, though ...

Renard (Renard), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:50 (eighteen years ago) link

To be honest, I think paying the big $$ for vinyl imposes a kind of discipline on you that can be a good thing. If I was using (aka STEALING) mp3's i'd be heavily tempted to do tons of flavor-of-the-week mixes that sound just like everybody else's, but since I can only really get 10-15 new records a month, each one I get has to kind of fit in with my existing collection. This is kind of limiting and frustrating at times, but it also means that I have kind of developed a sort of personal 'sound', and when I buy records it's always with an ear towards how they can be bent into line with my other stuff. That makes kind of a good eclectic-not-eclectic duality to my collection. IMO.


This also could be heavy heavy heavy rationalization for all the $$$ I've spent on the damn black things....

tylero (tylero), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:01 (eighteen years ago) link

flavor-of-the-week mixes that sound just like everybody else's,

Ok that sounds kind of ass-ey, but I'm definatley not referring to anybody in this thread here. All the mixes posted have been great and unique.

tylero (tylero), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:02 (eighteen years ago) link

tylero you're in LA right? do you buy your vinyl online, or are there decent LA record stores with preview stations I don't know about?

Lukas (lukas), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:15 (eighteen years ago) link

To be honest, I think paying the big $$ for vinyl imposes a kind of discipline on you that can be a good thing. If I was using (aka STEALING) mp3's i'd be heavily tempted to do tons of flavor-of-the-week mixes that sound just like everybody else's, but since I can only really get 10-15 new records a month, each one I get has to kind of fit in with my existing collection.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

First, you're making the assumption that everyone DJing digitally is downloading their tunes from the P2P networks. Not to sound all high and mighty, but some of us do try to take the high road and support the artists we're playing, either by using any of the dozens of legal download sites like Beatport or by encoding vinyl and CDs for playing out and making mixes.

Distribution has always been a major concern with dance music, and the legal download phenomenon has begun to solve this while simultaneously leveling the playing field quite a bit, especially for people (like me) who live in towns with crappy record stores. Sure, I could order vinyl off the internet but what's the point if I can get the same tune as a download and avoid the shipping costs, long wait, etc?

jeffery (jeffery), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:24 (eighteen years ago) link

San Diego, Actually. There are 2 good stores in SD for techno (CSL and United) with listening stations, and another good one for trad house (Siesta). In LA the only place to go anymore is Amoeba, which has no listening stations. This Is Music on Melrose was great but is sadly gone. Sorry LA-ers.

tylero (tylero), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

LAers should peep the new turntablelab store... i think its walking distance from Ameobea...

maybe we need a new thread for discussions on all this digital DJ stuff?

grady (grady), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:32 (eighteen years ago) link

tylero, do you play out in san diego at all? asking b/c i will be there next week for a couple days

W i l l (common_person), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:02 (eighteen years ago) link

that's ableton installed and configured - i might be asking questions if i get stuck at any point.

the we are back mix - re-uploaded as for some reason only 2/3rds of it would download. now up in it's full 100 meg glory, if oyu can call it that. also up is the xfm the remix superchunk mix thingy mentioned by someone up there ^ ^ ^ somewhere. it features the shockheaded peters / t. raumschmiere thing that some folk mention on ilm which i never did get round to extending. and a couple of odd eyed bastard tracks, named after my love of mr bowie. commissioned and rejected / unfinished etc.. by sony. i owe stir a drink for nicking his bass guitar.

frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 03:24 (eighteen years ago) link

speaking of ableton, here's part of a mix i did a couple of years ago with it. it started life as a daft punk megamix but ended up a bit more promiscuous than that...

http://s51.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1H7V1XPPX47P937IOHYRA3KZIP

Conor (Conor), Friday, 10 March 2006 17:10 (eighteen years ago) link

33/45 Disco Mix

http://homepage.mac.com/drenard/.Public/DiscoMix.mp3

http://threethreefourfive.blogspot.com/2006/03/mix-of-month-3345-disco-mix.html

Lee Douglas - Same Changes
Nancy Martin - Can't Believe
Mike Theodore Orchestra - Cosmic Wind
Cloud One - Spaced Out
Theo Vaness - No Romance
Padded Cell - Signal Failure
Michael Zager Band - Let's All Chant
Mr. Magic - Potential 1980
Anita Ward - Ring My Bell
LCD Soundsystem - Tribulations (Lindstrom Remix)

Renard (Renard), Friday, 17 March 2006 07:35 (eighteen years ago) link

nancy martin 'can't believe' - fantastic that. the bassline's a winner, well in my house anyway

frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Friday, 17 March 2006 09:18 (eighteen years ago) link

cool, glad you liked it ... thanks for checkin out the mix!

Renard (Renard), Friday, 17 March 2006 15:01 (eighteen years ago) link

1992 as I knew it...

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 17 March 2006 15:21 (eighteen years ago) link

hello all, minimal/electro/micro etc house mixed in ableton:

oblio - for the floor (70m, 192kps)

http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=28OJXMKR1XR5C2HU38KY6DS13R

reinhard voigt - how we rock1
depeche mode - the darkest star (holden dub)
pier bucci - l'nuit
gui boratto - great match
ali khan - waterbomb
guido schneider - bassism
marc ashken - carrot
petter - robotfood
butane - a bus with wings
butane - flexor (run stop restore remix)
robag wruhme - waffellekkspander
alex smoke - tv is pish
magda - lockjaw
duoteque - adrya
marc ashken - inside track
alex smoke - don't see the point
alter ego - daktari (matt john remix)

mark (kingofnothing), Saturday, 18 March 2006 10:51 (eighteen years ago) link

short mix of some recent(ish) minimal(ish) stuff that I have on vinyl and wanted to listen to on my ipod

http://threethreefourfive.blogspot.com/2006/03/quick-mix-vol-3.html
http://homepage.mac.com/drenard/.Public/QuickMix3.mp3

dopplereffekt - myon-neutrino
villalobos - serpentin
trentemoller - sunstroke
frank martiniq - boost (robag wruhme's bokkser mix)
noze - tulip schnaps
isolee - face b

Renard (Renard), Monday, 27 March 2006 00:03 (eighteen years ago) link

i've got a two-part radio session up at my mixes site. actually only part 1 is up there, and part two is here (or here if that one expires). no tracklist just yet but expect the usual subjects from me.... villuciano, trentenomy, mobilakant et al.

philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Monday, 27 March 2006 11:51 (eighteen years ago) link

New NYC Calling All Kids mix (www.callingallkids.tv) of post punk and modern derivatives.

http://www.callingallkids.tv/eamonharkinCAK4.mp3

1. ESG - Party

2. !!! - Turn This Thing On (Rub'n'tug Mix)

3. Hot Chip - Over And Over

4. Bauhaus - Kick In The Eye

5. Vitalic - My Friend Dario

6.The Undertones - Teenage Kicks

7. The Juan Maclean - Give Me Every Little Thing (Cajmere Mix)

8. The Gossip - Standing In The Way Of Control (Le Tigre Mix)

9. Skatt Brothers - Walk The Night

10. Liquid Liquid - Optimo

11. Jon Spencer Blues Explosion - Mars Arizona (DFA Mix)

11. Loose Joints - Is It All Over My Face?

12. New Order - Bizarre Love Triangle

13. Cut Copy - Going Nowhere (Digitalism Mix)

14. Gang Of Four - To Hell With Poverty

15. Chromatics - Healer

16. Delta 5 - Mind Your Own Business

eamon harkin (harkine), Tuesday, 28 March 2006 00:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Ohm Sweet Ohm mix. 76 min.

Ohm sweet Ohm part1

Ohm sweet Ohm part2


Errors – Hans Herman
Copyshop – Mystery guest (darkfaders dub)
Emperor Machine – Roller Daddy
Can – Mothersky (PSK1 edit)
Neu – Für Immer
Death in Vegas – Head
Blackstrobe –Keine lust (front 242 rmx)
Human League – Being boiled
--------------------------------------------------------
Tangerine Dream - Nebulous dawn (excerpt)
Silver Apples – Oscillations
Shyza Minelli – New found acid
Isolee – My Hi-matic
Painted Nails – Hot doctor
Delia & Gavin - Rise DFA mix
Nemesi – Cosmica
Fictional Character – From another world
“Manhunter” Soundtrack – Grahams theme
M83 – Don’t save us from the flames (superpitcher mix)
Technova – Atmosphere

equipment = 2 turntables and a cup of Tea.
(Sample overdubs excluded)

Danny Boy, Tuesday, 28 March 2006 07:31 (eighteen years ago) link


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