Magic: The Gathering C/D

that's a good point

yeah i actually think g/w tends to be the most consistent archetype because as ciderpress says it has the deepest pool of playable cards. whereas the nut deck (barring pr obv) is probably the very fast rakdos deck w/great removal but thats just so much harder to find even when rakdos is open

ive also found u/w to be p swingy too or maybe i just dont like the slow version of that deck enough so im trying too hard to force the fast/tempo build.

but yeah izzet is starting to get drafted the 'right' amount again at least in my last couple of drafts and now golgari cards tend to wheel quite a bit - not sure that theres really a 'good' golgari deck but i mean ill take all the dreg manglers you want to pass me i guess

I feel like including a handful more cheap 'pretty good' scavenge dudes would have balanced things a lot

like how many 'good' golgari decks really play like some scavenge machine? there just aren't enough playables

or just make dreg mangler common. if frostburn and centaur healer are justifiable commons, why not.

yeah in theory the slow defender ramp deck should be p good at both stalling out the early game with cheap X/4s and then overwhelming the other decks late w/superior threats and card advantage from scavenge creatures but i mean mostly i just end up losing to tempo plays or my walls are too expensive or ineffective. and the fast golgari deck seems p reliant on uncommons to happen all that often? idk

I think the prob is that the B removal gets scooped up by rakdos decks too

like lets say stab wound was GB - not that that's particularly more logical color-wise - but it shifts the card into golgari stall decks

golgari does get better use out of launch party already, i think the real problem is that axebane isnt an 0/4 and that there arent enough good golgari uncommons compared to the other guilds.

or just make dreg mangler common. if frostburn and centaur healer are justifiable commons, why not.

mangler is better than either of those honestly. but outside of that the Guildmage is really the only premium uncommon. anyway the way I get Golgari to really work is this - pick up Axebane Guardians, which produce extra mana with Gatecrepper Vines and Trestle Troll. once you get enough mana you can play Terrus Wurm (which nobody ever picks) or Scavenge it on say, a Kurozda Monitor or Daggerdrome Imp. And so on. Grisly Savage is the engine that really makes this all work. Basically the deck has to really be defense first and it's a good candidate to get Blustersquall'd out of the game but I've seen it work. For all the talk about the best and worst guilds, I actually find this format to be fairly balanced. I've lost with good Selesnya and won with okay Golgari decks. I think every guild has the tools to beat every other guild.

my advice for Azorius is to take Insperia's Skywatch. I know he looks godawful next to Lyev Skynight but the +2 to toughness is better than you think. first of all games are going to go longer with Azorius no matter what you do. so many of their cards stall things and your "kill cards" are usually 2/x's so you can't win fast. so you'll get to 6 mana. as I mentioned above, 3/3 is almost always going to be the biggest flyer and Detain is an ability that tends to become more important later on in the game (especially since your opponent shouldn't have too many things to block flyers). Also you probably don't need to be told this but Archon of the Triumvariate is a ridiculous card in Limited. Never landed one and lost.

welp, finally got to ride the Pack Rat express. This is one of the most bonkers limited cards I've ever played with. I mean I've played with Bonfire, Entreat, and several ridiculous Planeswalkers but those are mythics. I mean there were ridiculous combos in the past like Invisible Stalker + Butcher's Cleaver but this is basically a one-card combo that gives you exactly one turn to stop it.

I can't believe Pack Rat didn't cost 2B and force you to create new tokens only as a sorcery. Those two changes would have gone a long way to making it a lot less frustrating in limited while still being an exciting bomb, and it has the benefit of being flavourful. The only explanation to why the card is not like this I can come up with is that Development pushed it hoping to make it constructed playable?

yep. I actually drafted one of the best draft decks I've ever gotten - it was G/W/B super with 6 populate cards, Armada Wurm, Centaurs, Knights, five removal spells, 2 Grisly Savages, four gates, and 2 of the landsearch Vines - it became ALL about playing Pack Rat and just going to town. Eyes in the Skies populating Pack Rat token is awesome too because it gives you a chump blocker for flying. Wound up losing a game to overloaded Cylconic Rift though :(

Well, the silly thing is I don't think it is constructed playable. It's too slow, and with sweepers and Detention Sphere around, it's not very hard to deal with. It might have been an 11th hour addition to the set that they didn't have time to cost properly (which is how Jace the Mind Sculptor happened). Think it would be fine if the activation cost was bumped up to 4 or 5.

I survived a turn 2 Pack Rat! I feel like I deserve a T-shirt.

Granted, I went first (lost to turn 2 Pack Rat in game 2). Played Vine, Axebane Guadian, Jailbreaker (which still gives you mana with Axebane, Gate or no), Smile Molding for 7, then Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage and populated the hell out of it. So it took a nuts draw but still.

If Pack Rat were uncommon this format would be absolutely ruined. I can only think of a handful of cards that dominated Limited like this. Jitte in particular was stupidly powerful (and ruined Constructed for a while as a bonus). Bonfire and Entreat from AVR were instant "win target game" as well. But you couldn't get them in your opener nor draw them early, plus they were Mythic. Maybe Gideon? Again, Mythic Rare. I wonder how much R&D tested this thing.

Jitte is the strongest limited card of all time, it completely invalidates creature combat for your opponent as a way to stabilize or win the game, which means 99% of limited decks are drawing dead against it.

Gideon in ROE is probably #2 since there were so few answers to him, fewer than answers to Pack Rat in RTR I think. Same reasons as Jitte here, cards that invalidate your opponent's combat step are disgusting in limited (This is also why I was scared of Vault of the Archangel when it got spoiled but it turned out to play fair due to the tempo loss of activating it).

Pack Rat could certainly be top 5 though I'm sure there's a few I'm forgetting. Bonfire/Entreat are not close.

also note that Gideon was a lot less overpowered in M12 so context is pretty important here too

The Rat stands apart from most bombs in that you would almost always keep 6 lands + Rat as your starting hand. Gideon + 6 lands in ROE is a bit harder decision, though I guess keepable depending on the matchup; in M12, definitely a mulligan. (And Entreat the Angels + 6 lands is your deck giving you the finger.) Most bombs need at least some minor support to win, but the Rat wins on its own. That said, I agree Jitte was a more broken card in its block. It was kind of the perfect storm for it - slow underpowered format that had lots of stalls, not much artifact removal. Much harder to answer than Rat.

Masticore probably in the top 5 based on stories, but I wasn't playing at that time.

Exactly! I've heard stories of how, if you get TWO Pack Rats, you can play 38 Swamps and just mull until you find one, and STILL win most of the time even if you're going to 3-4 cards. I can't think of ANY other card like that (not even Jitte!)

Bonfire/Entreat are not close.

Yes and no. Without Miracle they still feel bomby but are very mana intensive obviously (you really need 7+ mana for a *big* effect). But with Miracle, they're among the most powerful effects ever to hit Limited. Playing against one of those cards, the feeling is pretty much ALWAYS "I have to race here because if they draw it, I'm dead". But as a whole, yes, not as good, because as Vinnie mentioned you can draw Entreat in your opener where it's either a worse Serra Angel or a 7 mana bomb that you may not be alive for (and I highly doubt you'd wait for 9 mana).

cards that invalidate your opponent's combat step are disgusting in limited

This + cards that are insane without mass removal. Pack Rat is no good in constructed because they can all get Supreme Verdicted away. In general anything that creates creatures every turn is going to be insane in Limited. Phyrexian Processor was another card that would just win the game right away. But at least you could Disenchant that.

Like a "Limited all-stars" list would be something like this:

Jitte
Pack Rat
Loxodon Warhammer
Oblivion Stone
Masticore
Phyrexian Processor
Basilisk Collar

Of these, I'd say Jitte and Pack Rat are easily #1 and #2. Interesting how many are artifacts. I hesitated to put Basilisk Collar on here, but the thing really is insane in basically any style of deck. With the exception of Pack Rat these were all good Constructed cards too. Can anyone think of a card with a bigger disconnect in Limited/Constructed value than that? Can you even imagine one?

Also, honorable mention to the following format warping commons:

Rancor, Pestilence, Rolling Thunder, Armadillo Clock, Sparksmith, Sprout Swarm

Siding out your deck for Lost In The Woods and 43-or-so Forests circa INN/INN/DKA?

i never lost to that though, there were maindeckable answers at common. one time i was in red-black so no enchantment removal, but i had olivia and rage thrower so i just killed all my own creatures with olivia and burned them out.

Wow, people must really hate golgari. I was getting passed crazy b/g cards tonight and took a couple opponents for a ride on the pack rat express. I can't believe someone passed me this ridiculous unbeatable card.

Here my deck:

Deviant glee
Giant growth
Ultimate price
Drudge beetle
Gatecreeper vine
Pack rat
Daggerdrome imp x 2
Thrill-kill assassin
Grisly salvage
Golgari keyrune
Dead Reveler x 2
Sewer shambler
Stab wound
Dead Revenant
Desecration demon
Korozda monitor
Jarad's orders
Sluiceway scorpion
Corpsejack menace
Death's presence (foil)
Assassin's strike

Golgari Guildgate
Forest x 6
Swamp x 10

After wrecking the first two matches with pack rat and desecration demon, I ended up getting killed by stab wounds out of a Rakdos deck. Still ended up in 2nd place and we t home with 3 prize packs, a personal best!

Siding out your deck for Lost In The Woods and 43-or-so Forests circa INN/INN/DKA?

homersimpsonboxing.dec

everyone seems really caught up in drafting superfast limited decks lately. i have just been kicking back, prioritizing trestle trolls, and durdling them to death. had great success today with a 5-color axebane deck, for real. it helped that i got passed a bunch of splashy bombs, of course. i guess i'm just saying keep your eyes open for the possibility to play slow decks, cuz they are good.

yeah hhaha i was tired of the 2 color aggro decks so at FNM the other night i drafted golgari splashing Mercurial Chemister. it felt good, though i had to play my roommate in the first round and he's better than me and had a strong deck so i didn't get the payoff for it

i've seen 5-color axebane decks work. playing against turn 5 Risen Sanctuaries is really tough. this is really kind of a board position format - good offensive creatures vs. good defensive creatures, and a couple that are both. Frostburn Weird and Orge Gatekeeper are both excellent because 4 power and 4 toughness are both super relevant. unfortunately Gatekeeper needs help but hey, it at least powers up Axebanes (and remember that even with a Gate out, Axebane gives you an extra mana when you have the Ogre out - an interaction I bet many many people miss). only issue with those decks is that Stab Wound can really destroy you.

even if that deck can work in some games, can you really count on getting the right draw? also getting passed enough axebane.

the idea is to pick up 2 in pack 1, then start getting bombs then hopefully another one in pack 2 or 3? I agree it's risky. Gatecreeper Vine helps a lot with this too.

or I guess my other q is, lets say you're full out going for this - what cards do you prioritize? it seems like your need for picking up mana fixing ends up taking up lots of your best picks

well lots of high-mana stuff like Sanctuary comes around late. but I'd say obviously you kind of transition into it after the first pack, then you go for bombs and guildmages. can't say I've ever built it myself, just that I've seen it work. you pick the strongest card in every pack.

i think that's the wrong approach to that deck - to me it's something you fall into AFTER you draft some bombs/guildmages. if youre only ramping into axebane stags and horncallers chants then you were in the archetype for the wrong reason, not that those are bad to have but you want something higher impact before you move in on them

like you just can't draft expecting to be passed top tier cards

yeah but I guess I'm wondering at what point you realize it's worth it

yeah this is what I mean to say, bombs/guildmages > manawalls, basically. if your first pack shakes out that way you can go for it but of course it's true that you can just wind up ramping into nothing

that said, 4 or 5-color green actually does kinda work even without a bunch of Axebanes. Basically built a base G/W deck that splashes two colors for rares/bomby guildmages/good commons like Stab Wound - you draft a lot of gates, Gatecreeper Vine, Axebane, the Promenade land, etc ; slow mana base but your average card is much better than your opposition (hopefully). You can even go 16 lands this way. Just not passing on power rares/uncommons gives you a lot of ways to win. Maybe the most fun deck to play too since the interactions are so much stranger. It's easy to grab lots of Gates if there are 3-5 different ones you want to play, which makes Ogre very good of course.

like this is one I drafted recently:

2 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Axebane Guardian
1 Dreg Mangler
3 Ogre Gatekeeper
2 Voidwielder
1 Centaur Healer
1 Growing Ranks
1 Righteous Authority
2 Centaur's Herald
2 Knightly Valor
1 Slime Molding
1 Eyes in the Skies
1 Stab Wound
1 Kurodza Guildmage
1 Towering Indrik
1 Trostani's Judgement
1 Arrest

1 Grove of the Guardian
4 Various Gates
12 Basic Land

First pick here was the Grove, then Growing ranks, then a Herald, Eyes, etc. Picked up Gatecreeper late in the pack which was nice. Then pack 2 all the good Golgari stuff came + an Axebane and Vine and a late Voidweilder which I quite frankly hated out. I got a late Azorius Gate and thought that maybe I could go for it. Pack 3 I got a pick 3 Righteous Authority which I didn't have to pass. I guess this isn't really too wild but suffice to say between the 3 manawalls and 4 gates I never had any mana problems. My early game sucked but turn 4 Ogres and turn 5 Voidweilders really tend to slow things down.

that's an interesting deck and it does seem playable. but I think the gap between that and a slightly worse version of that deck is probably enormous.

that deck is kind of a bad example because it was one of those weird swiss drafts where you get pick 9 Centaur's Heralds and pick 5 Guildmages. but the idea is that it allows you to take advantage of good late picks like Voidweilders instead of playing like a Crocodile or something. i've done it going G/W/B/r where I splashed an Auger Spree and a Carnival Hellsteed too. basically Green/anything and late picks like Vines or Axebanes or off-color gates really set you up for it. I've seen a lot of Gates come pick 10-12 so you can grab those and if things shake out you wind up playing them.

won a draft last night with bellows lizard

i'm slowly making my way through the checklist for this format, the goal is always to play every card legitimately in limited - i got pretty close with innistrad, was only missing a few rares, graveyard shovel, and infernal plunge iirc

AVR was a good format for this because you often had to really stretch to get 23 playables :/

Anyway one word of warning for 4/5 color green is that when you're playing something like 2 Axebanes, a Gatecreeper, and a Keyrune, if you're also running 17 lands then you basically are playing 21/40 cards as mana sources. Meaning if your opponent is drawing 2-3 removal spells you can easily just stall out because you have to get a little luckier to win a topdeck war. I feel weird going to 15 lands but 16 seems doable if you have the Vine.

yeah but each mana source is statistically less useful to your situation (early game) and you're also increasing your mulligan chances

I think I'm just too risk averse for these kinda decks

i didnt even try for AVR, too many stone unplayables like grounded rather than just the super niche things like moonmist or wreath of geists. RTR's are much closer to the latter luckily

would you ever pick cards like lobber crew or doorkeeper for a deck like this or do the core defenders need to be in green?

w a quick glance thru the RTR card list, search warrant and search the city are the only cards for which i can't think of a situation that i'd play them. theres some others with extremely narrow cases though like racecourse fury that i won't be bummed if i never get to use

actually i just thought of one for search warrant but i don't expect it to ever happen

i won't pick either of those Moodles - Armory Guard, Ogre Gatekeeper, and Trestle Troll are all good 4+ toughness guys that go with Green's "friendly" RTR colors

lived the dream today, and beat a pack rat deck. it helped that i had both supreme verdict and detention sphere.

had a strange draft tonight, was well into azorius when I opened a pack rat. ended up with:

lyev skyknight
new prahv guildmage
azorius keyrune
seller of songbirds
2x trostani's judgment
azorius justiciar
avenging arrow
armory guard
skyline predator
paralyzing grasp
isperia's skywatch
voidwielder
2x inaction injunction
2x inspiration
syncopate
cyclonic rift
stealer of secrets
tower drake
soulsworn spirit
transguile promenade
+pack rat and one swamp
.
dnp
blustersquall
x2 cancel
armory guard
azorius arrester
rogue's passage