guildmages 4 example
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link
@frogs sure, and even the stuff i think is more objectively true in my critique can still seem like a virtue depending on your own reaction to the set. its a very fluid and difficult and interesting set to draft, card evaluation seems to me to be heavily contextual which is good!
i think the fact that this has been a challenging set to draft has made it less interesting to draft in some ways? because the value of most cards fluctuates widely enough to make it difficult to really establish a consistent pick order i felt like ppl on mtgo ended up really trying to force the 'proven' good archetypes like populate and fast rakdos. which meant that the best counter strategy was first a tempo izzet build and then, as people started to actually take frostburn wierds, a midrange golgari one. like the more linear and archetype-driven other drafters are the more it narrows your own best draft strategy?
idk the guildmages suck, theyre powerful but not exciting to me. but thats just my own reaction to the cards. i think there are more polarized cards in this set than im used to tho
― f (Lamp), Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:11 (eleven years ago) link
To me that's what makes a good and interesting format. Being high on Frostburn Weird since day 1 has led to a lot of my early success on RTR and then learning how to play Golgari when nobody would take it is what's getting me by now. Formats where there is a consistant pick order are the ones that get dull in my opinion.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:19 (eleven years ago) link
I had similar thoughts to Lamp about Shadowmoor, which was a very fluid set, and one I didn't like drafting. IIRC a lot of people defaulted to one-color decks because it was easy and consistent, myself included (also there was a cycle that rewarded it). Playing two colors was a head trip because you could play about 50% of the set (!) but had to carefully balance power vs. having a decent manabase. Haven't felt that way about RtR though, something about it is easier to get my head around.
― Vinnie, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:24 (eleven years ago) link
signal reading seems paramount w/ the guild distribution and so I think the set rewards good drafting more than luck
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:28 (eleven years ago) link
but I have been winning a lot so I would think that
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:29 (eleven years ago) link
I think it also punishes you for forcing a guild.
I honestly think there are very few commons and uncommons in this set that can't find a viable slot in one of the major limited archetypes. Percentage-wise, there are probably more rares that I'd pass on because they are either too situational or too complex to provide any dependable value.
As far as guildmages go, the azorius, izzet, and rakdos ones are all pretty powerful, selesnya is ok, and the golgari one is the weakest because it doesn't synergize well with a golgari strategy.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:41 (eleven years ago) link
i don't think this set is nearly as difficult as innistrad, which i found difficult to the point of frustration for the first 30-40 drafts. that set really heralded the limited game's shift from card advantage strategies to board advantage ones and for an old player returning to the game it was hard to grasp. M13 was more 'old-fashioned' in regard to this spectrum and unsurprisingly i did a lot better with it.
i think there's a reasonable balance in RTR between the linear 2-color guild strategies and the more modular midrange/control decks you can make, though the former definitely have the advantage. i understand why that is though, because they want to give the single-guild strategies a chance to shine since the full block draft format is likely going to shift the default number of colors from 2 to 3+ like in the old ravnica block.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:43 (eleven years ago) link
crazy talk, it goes
1. selesnya2. rakdos(small gap)3. azorius(gap)4. golgari (big gap)5. izzet
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:47 (eleven years ago) link
Moodles you're crazy, the selesnya guildmage is like a top 10 card in the set, better than most of the rares. the only way to beat it is to kill it or be well ahead on board already.
the azorius one has played weakest for me, it's very mana hungry and essentially plays out as an expensive Blinding Mage a lot of the time. izzet is okay but is designed more for the slow izzet deck which is the hardest of the 10 'guild archetypes' to draft. playing the rakdos one is like turning on godmode when you're curving out in an aggro deck but it's not as impressive elsewhere. golgari one is my favorite, its very flexible, its abilities play on both offense and defense, and it gives much-needed evasion to the golgari decks.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:50 (eleven years ago) link
yeah rakdos as a 2 drop is just unfair
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:52 (eleven years ago) link
i'd rank themselesnya > rakdos > golgari > izzet > azorius
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:52 (eleven years ago) link
biggest gap there is between golgari and izzet
but it also has value late game w/ its damage ability. can do damage in large increments. xp
My problem with the Selesnya one is that the abilities are a bit too redundant with other selesnya cards rather than complemenatary. The first ability is very expensive and only makes sense in emergency situations while the second is reasonably costed but doesn't end up getting used a whole lot.
I'm surprised at the lack of love for the izzet and azorius ones. I've definitely seen both izzet abilities and the azorius flying ability have a major impact.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 18:55 (eleven years ago) link
6 mana to make a 3/3 is not expensive when a) it doesn't cost you a card and b) it allows you to make a free 3/3 for 4 mana from then on
don't think of the selesnya guildmage as a 2-drop like the other ones, think of it the same as, say, archon of the triumvirate, it's something you play mid-to-late game that turns your mana into an unbeatable board presence
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:01 (eleven years ago) link
by selesnya guildmage i mean vitu-ghazi guildmage of course, but the old selesnya guildmage was a similarly unbeatable card in the long game
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:02 (eleven years ago) link
I've just found that there are so many token generators and populate spells that the guildmage doesn't end up getting much play. Doesn't mean I'd pass on it if I'm in selesnya.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:10 (eleven years ago) link
I'd switch Izzet and Azorius Guildmage but I otherwise agree with the rankings. The flying ability actually comes up a fair bit even in UW, and the detain can be invaluable if the game goes long. For whatever reason, my Izzet games don't usually go long enough for the abilities to come up, and they're both long-game abilities. Selesnya Guildmage is a bomb like an Archon, except you can randomly win on turn 4 if you happen to have a Centaur out.
― Vinnie, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:26 (eleven years ago) link
the last magic online newsletter had a stats dump of the most successful first-picks in RTR draft by win % and vitu-ghazi guildmage was #1
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:26 (eleven years ago) link
actually it was by gross wins not % i think since pack rat was only #6 below some commons/uncommons. but still that means it's the best non-rare.
interestingly, collective blessing ranked above pack rat on the list
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:29 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah I dunno how you're down on Vitu-Ghazi guildmage. It's even crazier if you get a Grove of the Guardian or a Slime Molding. It's not like Rakdos where it's really relevant as a 2-drop but the thing just takes over the game on turn 6. All the guildmages are great. Also I disagree that Kurozda (the Golgari one) doesn't really fit into the B/G strategy - first ability pushes through damage, second allows you to sac your walls or pumped dudes, works with Scavenge, and is insane with Chorus of Might. Maybe not as much of a guild fit as the other four but if I'm G/B I'm hardly ever passing one of these.
I liked Shadowmoor because the one-color decks really didn't feel like one-color, but I agree it was really confusing. Going just red gives you R/G and R/B cards, while going red/black adds B/U cards into the mix, some of which were really hard to cast since they'd be all black mana. I agree it was a wonky set to draft but I think it was generally fun.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:29 (eleven years ago) link
shadowmoor is one of the few sets i haven't ever drafted, the others being lorwyn, coldsnap, and most of the old core sets
i did a sealed of SHM/EVE once though and my main impression was that it was way imbalanced towards red
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:37 (eleven years ago) link
could you post the rest of this? v interesting
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:43 (eleven years ago) link
its only top 10, and doesn't reweight to account for rarity so i don't know how useful it is but:
Top Ten Return to Ravnica First PicksVitu-Ghazi Guildmage Stab Wound Call of the Conclave Collective Blessing Annihilating Fire Pack Rat Auger Spree Mizzium Mortars Skymark Roc Desecration Demon
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:45 (eleven years ago) link
I wonder why Pack Rat is only the second most powerful rare on the list? Is it because a lot of newer players dont grasp its power and pass it? (whereas "all your creatures get a lot bigger" is easy to grasp for everybody)
Also, Annihilating Fire > Auger Spree is strange. Fire is removal and therefore good but Spree kills so many more things in this format.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:50 (eleven years ago) link
i suspect it's just because forcing selesnya from pick 1 leads to better decks than forcing black from pick 1, and collective blessing isn't that much worse than the rat
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:53 (eleven years ago) link
They're both auto "you win" cards 90% of the time but Blessing takes six mana which you may not hit, I guess. (ditto on the Morters, another card you can't help but get destroyed by)
Likewise I guess Fire > Spree kind of suggests Rakdos is not winning so much anymore?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:56 (eleven years ago) link
i dunno, i much prefer spree
this data's from about 3 weeks ago, keep in mind. limited trends do change much like constructed ones
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 19:58 (eleven years ago) link
I don't think it suggests rakdos isn't winning as much as 'it's easy to be an also-run rakdos / rakdos-splash deck'
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:01 (eleven years ago) link
also some of that is gonna be 'cards popular w/ good players as much as cards that, themselves, added wins'
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:02 (eleven years ago) link
I guess 'cards included in winning decks' is a better metric for that reason?
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:03 (eleven years ago) link
The idea is that decks that take Fire can also be Izzet which wins more than Rakdos? I dunno. Spree is much better.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link
it's better - and I don't think izzet wins more? - but you're locking yourself in w/ a guild w/ your first pick. (alt. throwing it away)
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:09 (eleven years ago) link
i'm not sure i understand what you're saying here
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:18 (eleven years ago) link
a strong rakdos deck would be marginally better off w/ spree, but picking spree first only has a certain correlation w/ ending up w/ a strong rakdos deck, has a decent chance it will be a wasted pick if you go w/ anything else
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:23 (eleven years ago) link
like I'd bet the % of winning decks w/ a spree in it is higher than the % of winning decks w/ a fire in it, but that doesn't necessarily make it a better p1p1
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:27 (eleven years ago) link
I'd argue that it is, because you can't really play the Fire in every red deck either. Neither blue based three-color (Izzet/Azorius) nor green based (Rakdos/Golgari) are really able to get RR consistantly enough; I've sadly had to cut Fire from both those decks. Fire goes in Izzet of course but for Rakdos and the Rakdos/Izzet decks you want the Spree. Unless people just don't play 3 colors as much as I do?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:33 (eleven years ago) link
I would imagine that as a whole winning decks are slightly more likely to be two color than they are to be three color
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:36 (eleven years ago) link
Agreed but I wonder what % of people play 2 color as opposed to 3? And how many take Fires/Sprees wind up in sideboards?
Anyway, I wish we could get the top 20 instead of 10. I wonder how all the rares (not mythics) rank. I'd put 'em like this:
1. Pack Rat2. Mizzium Morters3. Collective Blessing4. Archon of the Triumvirate5. Desecration Demon6. Deadbridge Goliath7. Chaos Imps8. Righteous Authority9. Supreme Verdict10. Loxodon Smiter
With special mentions to Deathrite Shaman (which just gives you so many advantages over the course of a game) and Grove of the Guardian (awesome by itself, really sick with populate)
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:42 (eleven years ago) link
demon would be #2 for me. and I'd always rather have supreme verdict than righteous authority if I were azorius.
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:46 (eleven years ago) link
The problem with the Demon is that it has to stick for a few turns before it's a huge advantage, while Morters/Blessing basically win you the game right then and there.
I was thinking about Verdict and Authority but in the end I'm really really fond of Righteous Authority, only one real playable answer at common (the Appiration) and it gives you such a huge advantage if you can keep the creature in play for even two turns. Obviously Wraths are good but I've had way more games where I played Verdict and lost vs. one of these puppies.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:51 (eleven years ago) link
if it's sticking around for a few turns, they're losing a card a turn!
― iatee, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 20:57 (eleven years ago) link
Or taking 6 damage? Thats what I'm saying though; the best Limited cards are one that turn neutral or losing situations into winnings ones, which Morters and Blessing do. The Demon doesn't help so much in a losing position because it allows your opponent to control it in a way.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:01 (eleven years ago) link
I agree, it isn't always the blow out you want it to be
― Moodles, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:02 (eleven years ago) link
you forgot cyclonic rift on your list, i think that one's 2nd between pack rat and mortars
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link
oh yeah, totally slipped my mind
though I don't think it's quite as good as Morters, how many 5-toughness guys get played in Limited?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
-instant speed-splashable-hits keyrunes and arrests and such
i think these make it a bit better than mortars
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:22 (eleven years ago) link
mercurial chemister is another one i'd put in my top 10
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:30 (eleven years ago) link
Overloaded, the Morters is still one less, plus if your board position really sucks the Rift can really just be a glorified Blustersquall; usually by that time your opponent can recast everything in two turns. What really gives the edge to Morters (IMO) is that it's an incredible removal spell on its own. If you're just trying to push through early damage it's like a cheaper Auger Spree which is already a top 20 card in the format. Rift is also good by itself but sometimes you really need that emergency removal (like against an early Hellhole Flailer that you don't have an answer for)
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 21:36 (eleven years ago) link