should the West invade and/or bomb the fuck out of Iran?

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i'd imagine that the israelis will take matters into their own hands if the "west" doesn't

mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think anyone in the White House or the Pentagon even wants to contemplate invasion as an option. I'd guess that the most likely use of force would be a targeted cruise missile strike.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Now, they probably store important computer equipment in huge metal cages (and/or way underground) to keep out EM radiation.

"probably"

:)

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Now, they probably store important computer equipment in huge metal cages (and/or way underground) to keep out EM radiation

they just base all their computer equipment in Windows so that staff are well drilled on downtime procedures.

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:34 (eighteen years ago) link

A lot of the worry may have to do with recent statements by the current Iranian leader implying that he wants to rid the world of Israel. (and I stress the word "implying".) If a country is making such rhetoric while at the same time amping up their nukes program, I don't see why it's difficult to understand why world leaders would be worried about this... all foils of recent U.S. world policy, aside.

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

they should send in subway, wal-mart, and starbucks instead.
m.

msp (mspa), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

But as with India vs Pakistan I assume that the implications of nuking Israel would have direct consequences on Iran given their relative proximity, or am I wrong there?

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:37 (eighteen years ago) link

israel would fuck iran up, probably leading to a middle-east-sized war (at least)

mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyone who wants to use nuclear weapons within a range that could affect their own region probably doesn't care too much about the consequences, frankly. Thatone cares more about accomplishing the mission.

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyone who wants to use nuclear weapons within a range that could affect their own region probably doesn't care too much about the consequences

Yeah but I'm seriously wondering whether these people really exist!

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah but I'm seriously wondering whether these people really exist!

well, yes. having nuclear capability to shit up your neighbour is not the same as having it with the intention of using it. it's the same as carrying a knife.

that said: as every wee ned up in court for murder knows only too well, "it just got out of hand" isn't much of an excuse when you've just stabbed someone to death.

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, a few do... that's the problem. xpost

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 18:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Transitors built using vacuum tubes instead of semiconductors are more robust wrt voltage breakdown and would be expected to survive a nuclear attack.


Not to be too much a of a pedant, but vacuum tubes are not transistors.

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:10 (eighteen years ago) link

I know, I said "transistors built using vacuum tubes".

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:12 (eighteen years ago) link

So... would this reversed voltage thing happen to components that were not powered up during the EMP? Say you had a storeroom full of computers - would they all be ruined too?

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Transistors are inherently solid state. Vacuum tubes are not.

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh I see what you're saying -- vacuum tubes preceded transistors, transistors = semiconductor based.

OK.

xpost

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:15 (eighteen years ago) link

So... would this reversed voltage thing happen to components that were not powered up during the EMP? Say you had a storeroom full of computers - would they all be ruined too?

Yes. It wouldn't matter if the equipment was turned on because the induced current from the explosion would be strong enough to ruin everything.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:18 (eighteen years ago) link

wow, this would kinda put a dent in the economy of the Silicon Valley, to put it mildly.

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 19:57 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah all the extra business from replacing computers for tonnes of businesses is really going to bust intel.

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link

the other nastiness is just electrical power and cars not working right away.... and pumps and things on running water systems.

infrastructural nightmare, looting, etc.

"farm living is the life for me"?? the paranoid truth behind Green Acres.
m.

msp (mspa), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:06 (eighteen years ago) link

see y2k scare.
m.

msp (mspa), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:07 (eighteen years ago) link

Is there a term which can refer to both vacuum tubes and transistors?

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:14 (eighteen years ago) link

"circuit components"

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

i believe that the vacuum-tube-based equivalent of the transistor is the triode

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

According to this, vacuum tubes can be composed of many triodes, and the general term for vacuum tubes + transistors is "three-terminal device".

NoTimeBeforeTimeLoggedout, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:38 (eighteen years ago) link

What an odd derailment.

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:40 (eighteen years ago) link

i read that site to say that "three terminal device" is the general term for the transistor and the "vacuum tube triode"

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:46 (eighteen years ago) link

There's something really "Until The End Of The World" about this scenario. I'm now just waiting for the cave with the dream recording machine.

Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 21:13 (eighteen years ago) link

According to Ulfkotte's report, "western security sources" claim that during CIA Director Porter Goss' Dec. 12 visit to Ankara, he asked Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to provide support for a possibile 2006 air strike against Iranian nuclear and military facilities. More specifically, Goss is said to have asked Turkey to provide unfettered exchange of intelligence that could help with a mission.

DDP also reported that the governments of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Oman and Pakistan have been informed in recent weeks of Washington's military plans. The countries, apparently, were told that air strikes were a "possible option," but they were given no specific timeframe for the operations.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,392783,00.html

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 02:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Stratfor just sent this around so I'll copy/paste the whole thing:

* * *

Iran's Redefined Strategy

By George Friedman

The Iranians have broken the International Atomic Energy Agency seals on some of their nuclear facilities. They did this very deliberately and publicly to make certain that everyone knew that Tehran was proceeding with its nuclear program. Prior to this, and in parallel, the Iranians began to -- among other things -- systematically bait the Israelis, threatening to wipe them from the face of the earth.

The question, of course, is what exactly the Iranians are up to. They do not yet have nuclear weapons. The Israelis do. The Iranians have now hinted that (a) they plan to build nuclear weapons and have implied, as clearly as possible without saying it, that (b) they plan to use them against Israel. On the surface, these statements appear to be begging for a pre-emptive strike by Israel. There are many things one might hope for, but a surprise visit from the Israeli air force is not usually one of them. Nevertheless, that is exactly what the Iranians seem to be doing, so we need to sort this out.

There are four possibilities:

1. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, is insane and wants to be attacked because of a bad childhood.
2. The Iranians are engaged in a complex diplomatic maneuver, and this is part of it.
3. The Iranians think they can get nuclear weapons -- and a deterrent to Israel -- before the Israelis attack.
4. The Iranians, actually and rationally, would welcome an Israeli -- or for that matter, American -- air strike.

Let's begin with the insanity issue, just to get it out of the way. One of the ways to avoid thinking seriously about foreign policy is to dismiss as a nutcase anyone who does not behave as you yourself would. As such, he is unpredictable and, while scary, cannot be controlled. You are therefore relieved of the burden of doing anything about him. In foreign policy, it is sometimes useful to appear to be insane, as it is in poker: The less predictable you are, the more power you have -- and insanity is a great tool of unpredictability. Some leaders cultivate an aura of insanity.

However, people who climb to the leadership of nations containing many millions of people must be highly disciplined, with insight into others and the ability to plan carefully. Lunatics rarely have those characteristics. Certainly, there have been sociopaths -- like Hitler -- but at the same time, he was a very able, insightful, meticulous man. He might have been crazy, but dismissing him because he was crazy -- as many did -- was a massive mistake. Moreover, leaders do not rise alone. They are surrounded by other ambitious people. In the case of Ahmadinejad, he is answerable to others above him (in this case, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei), alongside him and below him. He did not get to where he is by being nuts -- and even if we think what he says is insane, it clearly doesn't strike the rest of his audience as insane. Thinking of him as insane is neither helpful nor clarifying.

The Three-Player Game

So what is happening?

First, the Iranians obviously are responding to the Americans. Tehran's position in Iraq is not what the Iranians had hoped it would be. U.S. maneuvers with the Sunnis in Iraq and the behavior of Iraqi Shiite leaders clearly have created a situation in which the outcome will not be the creation of an Iranian satellite state. At best, Iraq will be influenced by Iran or neutral. At worst, it will drift back into opposition to Iran -- which has been Iraq's traditional geopolitical position. This is not satisfactory. Iran's Iraq policy has not failed, but it is not the outcome Tehran dreamt of in 2003.

There is a much larger issue. The United States has managed its position in Iraq -- to the extent that it has been managed -- by manipulating the Sunni-Shiite fault line in the Muslim world. In the same way that Richard Nixon manipulated the Sino-Soviet split, the fundamental fault line in the Communist world, to keep the Soviets contained and off-balance late in the Vietnam War, so the Bush administration has used the primordial fault line in the Islamic world, the Sunni-Shiite split, to manipulate the situation in Iraq.

Washington did this on a broader scale as well. Having enticed Iran with new opportunities -- both for Iran as a nation and as the leading Shiite power in a post-Saddam world -- the administration turned to Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia and enticed them into accommodation with the United States by allowing them to consider the consequences of an ascended Iran under canopy of a relationship with the United States. Washington used that vision of Iran to gain leverage in Saudi Arabia. The United States has been moving back and forth between Sunnis and Shia since the invasion of Afghanistan, when it obtained Iranian support for operations in Afghanistan's Shiite regions. Each side was using the other. The United States, however, attained the strategic goal of any three-player game: It became the swing player between Sunnis and Shia.

This was not what the Iranians had hoped for.

Reclaiming the Banner

There is yet another dimension to this. In 1979, when the Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini deposed the Shah of Iran, Iran was the center of revolutionary Islamism. It both stood against the United States and positioned itself as the standard-bearer for radical Islamist youth. It was Iran, through its creation, Hezbollah, that pioneered suicide bombings. It championed the principle of revolutionary Islamism against both collaborationist states like Saudi Arabia and secular revolutionaries like Yasser Arafat. It positioned Shi'ism as the protector of the faith and the hope of the future.

In having to defend against Saddam Hussein's Iraq in the 1980s, and the resulting containment battle, Iran became ensnared in a range of necessary but compromising relationships. Recall, if you will, that the Iran-Contra affair revealed not only that the United States used Israel to send weapons to Iran, but also that Iran accepted weapons from Israel. Iran did what it had to in order to survive, but the complexity of its operations led to serious compromises. By the late 1990s, Iran had lost any pretense of revolutionary primacy in the Islamic world. It had been flanked by the Sunni Wahhabi movement, al Qaeda.

The Iranians always saw al Qaeda as an outgrowth of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and therefore, through Shiite and Iranian eyes, never trusted it. Iran certainly didn't want al Qaeda to usurp the position of primary challenger to the West. Under any circumstances, it did not want al Qaeda to flourish. It was caught in a challenge. First, it had to reduce al Qaeda's influence, or concede that the Sunnis had taken the banner from Khomeini's revolution. Second, Iran had to reclaim its place. Third, it had to do this without undermining its geopolitical interests.

Tehran spent the time from 2003 through 2005 maximizing what it could from the Iraq situation. It also quietly participated in the reduction of al Qaeda's network and global reach. In doing so, it appeared to much of the Islamic world as clever and capable, but not particularly principled. Tehran's clear willingness to collaborate on some level with the United States in Afghanistan, in Iraq and in the war on al Qaeda made it appear as collaborationist as it had accused the Kuwaitis or Saudis of being in the past. By the end of 2005, Iran had secured its western frontier as well as it could, had achieved what influence it could in Baghdad, had seen al Qaeda weakened. It was time for the next phase. It had to reclaim its position as the leader of the Islamic revolutionary movement for itself and for Shi'ism.

Thus, the selection of the new president was, in retrospect, carefully engineered. After President Mohammed Khatami's term, all moderates were excluded from the electoral process by decree, and the election came down to a struggle between former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani -- an heir to Khomeini's tradition, but also an heir to the tactical pragmatism of the 1980s and 1990s -- and Ahmadinejad, the clearest descendent of the Khomeini revolution that there was in Iran, and someone who in many ways had avoided the worst taints of compromise.

Ahmadinejad was set loose to reclaim Iran's position in the Muslim world. Since Iran had collaborated with Israel during the 1980s, and since Iranian money in Lebanon had mingled with Israeli money, the first thing he had to do was to reassert Iran's anti-Zionist credentials. He did that by threatening Israel's existence and denying the Holocaust. Whether he believed what he was saying is immaterial. Ahmadinejad used the Holocaust issue to do two things: First, he established himself as intellectually both anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish, taking the far flank among Islamic leaders; and second, he signaled a massive breach with Khatami's approach.

Khatami was focused on splitting the Western world by dividing the Americans from the Europeans. In carrying out this policy, he had to manipulate the Europeans. The Europeans were always open to the claim that the Americans were being rigid and were delighted to serve the role of sophisticated mediator. Khatami used the Europeans' vanity brilliantly, sucking them into endless discussions and turning the Iran situation into a problem the Europeans were having with the United States.

But Tehran paid a price for this in the Muslim world. In drawing close to the Europeans, the Iranians simply appeared to be up to their old game of unprincipled realpolitik with people -- Europeans -- who were no better than the Americans. The Europeans were simply Americans who were weaker. Ahmadinejad could not carry out his strategy of flanking the Wahhabis and still continue the minuet with Europe. So he ended Khatami's game with a bang, with a massive diatribe on the Holocaust and by arguing that if there had been one, the Europeans bore the blame. That froze Germany out of any further dealings with Tehran, and even the French had to back off. Iran's stock in the Islamic world started to rise.

The Nuclear Gambit

The second phase was for Iran to very publicly resume -- or very publicly claim to be resuming -- development of a nuclear weapon. This signaled three things:

1. Iran's policy of accommodation with the West was over.
2. Iran intended to get a nuclear weapon in order to become the only real challenge to Israel and, not incidentally, a regional power that Sunni states would have to deal with.
3. Iran was prepared to take risks that no other Muslim actor was prepared to take. Al Qaeda was a piker.

The fundamental fact is that Ahmadinejad knows that, except in the case of extreme luck, Iran will not be able to get nuclear weapons. First, building a nuclear device is not the same thing as building a nuclear weapon. A nuclear weapon must be sufficiently small, robust and reliable to deliver to a target. A nuclear device has to sit there and go boom. The key technologies here are not the ones that build a device but the ones that turn a device into a weapon -- and then there is the delivery system to worry about: range, reliability, payload, accuracy. Iran has a way to go.

A lot of countries don't want an Iranian bomb. Israel is one. The United States is another. Throw Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and most of the 'Stans into this, and there are not a lot of supporters for an Iranian bomb. However, there are only two countries that can do something about it. The Israelis don't want to get the grief, but they are the ones who cannot avoid action because they are the most vulnerable if Iran should develop a weapon. The United States doesn't want Israel to strike at Iran, as that would massively complicate the U.S. situation in the region, but it doesn't want to carry out the strike itself either.

This, by the way, is a good place to pause and explain to readers who will write in wondering why the United States will tolerate an Israeli nuclear force but not an Iranian one. The answer is simple. Israel will probably not blow up New York. That's why the United States doesn't mind Israel having nukes and does mind Iran having them. Is that fair? This is power politics, not sharing time in preschool. End of digression.

Intra-Islamic Diplomacy

If the Iranians are seen as getting too close to a weapon, either the United States or Israel will take them out, and there is an outside chance that the facilities could not be taken out with a high degree of assurance unless nukes are used. In the past, our view was that the Iranians would move carefully in using the nukes to gain leverage against the United States. That is no longer clear. Their focus now seems to be not on their traditional diplomacy, but on a more radical, intra-Islamic diplomacy. That means that they might welcome a (survivable) attack by Israel or the United States. It would burnish Iran's credentials as the true martyr and fighter of Islam.

Meanwhile, the Iranians appear to be reaching out to the Sunnis on a number of levels. Muqtada al-Sadr, the leader of a radical Shiite group in Iraq with ties to Iran, visited Saudi Arabia recently. There are contacts between radical Shia and Sunnis in Lebanon as well. The Iranians appear to be engaged in an attempt to create the kind of coalition in the Muslim world that al Qaeda failed to create. From Tehran's point of view, if they get a deliverable nuclear device, that's great -- but if they are attacked by Israel or the United States, that's not a bad outcome either.

In short, the diplomacy that Iran practiced from the beginning of the Iraq-Iran war until after the U.S. invasion of Iraq appears to be ended. Iran is making a play for ownership of revolutionary Islamism on behalf of itself and the Shia. Thus, Tehran will continue to make provocative moves, while hoping to avoid counterstrikes. On the other hand, if there are counterstrikes, the Iranians will probably be able to live with that as well.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 02:08 (eighteen years ago) link

The hard kill vs. the soft kill.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:17 (eighteen years ago) link

my cc in boot camp fought in that blink war against iran! more intense than the gulf war he said

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:28 (eighteen years ago) link

what blink war?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:36 (eighteen years ago) link

also the answer to the thread question: no, and no.

though i am not averse to the idea of bombing the fuck out of ahmadnejad, the security services offices in tehran, and parts of the city of qom.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:37 (eighteen years ago) link

the us and iran had a really brief hot war in the late 80s (87? 88?) - PRAYING MANTIS!!! you can tell the operations they don't really feel like selling the public cuz they have great names. anyone mention operation merlin yet?

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:42 (eighteen years ago) link

military operations names are classic.

oh, and hi blount.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i am still very surprised people take the threat of iranian nuclear weapons very seriously. supposing they actually manage to build a warhead, how will they deliver it?

by cruise missile? where will they get one from? north korea? how will the north koreans actually get it to iran? by train through china?

by tactical bomber? oh wait, the iranians don't have one, just a fleet of outmoded fighters from the late 70s.

i suppose they could load it into their WWII-era diesel submarine (aka the iranian submarine fleet) and putt-putt their way around cape horn into the mediterranean, then blow up off the coast of haifa or something ... just kidding.

dirty bomb? i suppose, but wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for terrorists to buy warhead material from disaffected chechens or something?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:44 (eighteen years ago) link

the stratfor article is very on-point except for whatever reason it sort of glosses over its own dismissal of the idea of an iranian nuclear arsenal.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:46 (eighteen years ago) link

It depends where the Iranians would be delivering the nuke. I believe Scud missiles can carry nuclear warheads (correct me if I'm wrong). I imagine the Iranians have those lying around. Israel is in Scud range and so are U.S. bases in the Middle East.

North Korea has longer range missile technology, including ICBMs in development. I don't think North Korea would sell a whole missile, but rather the know-how and complex parts. That could be smuggled by ship.

But the real issue is the destabilizing effect a nuclear Iran would have on the region. Israel would be desperate. Saudi Arabia would feel highly uneasy. Iraq would be further divided. Etc. etc.

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:59 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah one thing i've always wondered is when the drawdown was happening and AWESOME FIREPOWER was the word of the day (bask when us military doctrine was 'bomb the fuck out of them bomb the fuck out of them bomb the fuck out of them' instead of 'set some fireworks off and then send some troops in to, um, direct traffic or something and then, um, (the next step supposedly) maybe pull the troops out and have the shiites tell us who to bomb the fuck out of and don't ask no questions. play it by ear.) there was alot of talk about these missile barges that could have AWESOME FIREPOWER and not need nearly the support of a carrier group (some spec was it'd be manned by robots and army generals would control it from the field but c'mon, let's get real, no way the navy was gonna let the army play with something they paid for), and the main thing was (in them quaint days of balancing the budget and trying to control defense spending) it was CHEAP AS HELL. i think the idea may have died with mike boorda, no way the airedales or bubbleheads were getting behind it (gee i wonder why?) and they tend to get cno, but i've never gotten why other countries haven't developed it. anyhow that'd be a pretty awesome way to deliver that shit, esp if you could get the robots to work. get 200 warheads and a tugboat crew, throw some tarp on it, and pow - byebye bloombergville.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:02 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost israel is not in scud missile range of iran.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:05 (eighteen years ago) link

so is there any reason israel hasn't gone 'well fuck that' and just bombed whatever sites already? isn't the advantage of being a state that everyone has made their mind up about already and nothing's gonna change that ever that you when deciding what actions to take you only need to consider logistics and not political or diplomatic fallout?

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:06 (eighteen years ago) link

vahid might've just answered my question

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:07 (eighteen years ago) link

"Iran has been an active participant in the DPRK's Nodong program from its inception in the late 1980s. This would lead to the establishment of the Shehab-3 ("meteor" or "shooting star") program and has allowed both technology and components from the DPRK's programs to continue to flow into Iran's missile programs. Exactly when the Iranians established the Shehab-3 program is presently unclear. Preliminary evidence suggests that both the Nodong and Shehab-3 programs were established concurrently in 1988, although the Shehab-3 program may have had a different name at the time. It appears that a key element of the program was not to purchase and deploy a fleet of Nodong missiles—which it could have done; instead it was to develop the technology and industrial infrastructure to the point where it could produce the system indigenously. The Shehab-3 is of strategic importance for two primary reasons. First, its 1,300km+ range allows it to strike every important US ally in the region (i.e., Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey), southern Russia, and most of Afghanistan. Second, it was designed as a delivery system for WMD warheads."

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iran/Missile/3367_3395.html


It's pretty clear that Iran has the missile technology to hit Israel.

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:14 (eighteen years ago) link

A graphic representation:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40144000/gif/_40144948_iran_missile2_map203.gif

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:26 (eighteen years ago) link

What would the point of them attacking Israel be, other than to get their ass dumped on by the FIFTY bombs the Israelis have?

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:40 (eighteen years ago) link

it would create another pole around which world politics would have to move.

geoff (gcannon), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:44 (eighteen years ago) link

that'd be a pretty awesome way to deliver that shit, esp if you could get the robots to work. get 200 warheads and a tugboat crew, throw some tarp on it, and pow - byebye bloombergville.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:51 (eighteen years ago) link

debito - they don't actually have that missile you're talking about!

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:57 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...

israel to iran, today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3Vfme-2qg

the late great, Monday, 30 April 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link

look at all that secret shit

https://i.imgur.com/nP4j1m8.jpg

the late great, Monday, 30 April 2018 19:00 (five years ago) link

bibi's presentation style is ... interesting

Daniel Johns Hopkins (jim in vancouver), Monday, 30 April 2018 19:27 (five years ago) link

red black and green binders a nice touch

the late great, Monday, 30 April 2018 19:35 (five years ago) link

actually should have been red white and green now that i think about it

my brain is off today

the late great, Monday, 30 April 2018 19:36 (five years ago) link

one year passes...

https://i.imgur.com/XkEeFfV.png

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 3 January 2020 11:50 (four years ago) link

thought this thread might be useful for non-UK politics takes on this, apologies if i've missed another revive

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 3 January 2020 11:54 (four years ago) link

Most talk has been over here.

Le Bateau Ivre, Friday, 3 January 2020 12:04 (four years ago) link

ah thank you

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 3 January 2020 12:05 (four years ago) link


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