Rolling Metal Thread 2009

The new Buried Inside rules (think I mentioned it a while back), but I'm still iffy re: Tombs. "Gossamer" does sound pretty strong.

new ABSU is out there. i will be listening to it as soon as my illegal download is done.

"I've been listening to Solstafir on myspace lately, and uh, I don't really get it. Competent but kinda dull, eh? Maybe if I hadn't played "The Silent Enigma" to death back in the days."

i gotta agree. if you are gonna rip off anathema and primordial, you REALLY have to do it well to impress me.

and i like plenty of MDB biters and other U.K. rainstorm doom copycats, so it's not like i'm a purist or something.

"Also: RIP Metal Edge =("

yikes! so sorry to hear this, phil. for real. i could tell that you were very much in your element and putting a lot into the mag. i would have written more for you if life hadn't intruded so mundanely for me. i dug reading the mag, for sure. and i will definitely miss the near-perfect placement of matt's haiku craziness.

it might be that the presence of vocals, but their incomprehensibility, bothers me. I feel like I should be able to understand them, and I'm frustrated that I cannot. Is frustrating the listener a part of the intention of metal music? Or is there something about the vocals that if I understood it, I'd be able to appreciate it more?

Ugly, clunky vocals are my biggest stumbling block in current ("extreme", whatever) metal by far. When I like metal vocals, it's usually because I like their sound. Hell, sometimes it's just because I can tolerate their sound. In "real" metal, they almost never communicate anything anymore, or at least anything remotely concrete -- which is a weakness of the music whether metal fans admit it or not. It also explains why, when I made out my "Top 25" metal albums list for last year, the ones near the top usually tended to be the kind of albums (like Rose Tattoo, say) that lots of metal fans would now insist are merely "hard rock." And sorry, lyric sheets are not the answer -- I judge music by what I hear, not what I could hear in theory if the band would only let me. (Also don't think the Lamb of God guy's vocals are particularly comprehensible, for what it's worth.) Anyway, the inability to decipher lyrics doesn't make me dislike metal -- I still like a lot of it and love some of it, regardless. Lyrics are far from the main thing I listen for when I listen to music, any music. (And I also like lots of rock and other music in foreign languages, and obviously I can't decipher those vocals, either.) But I do have to think that a lot of metal would be better if I could make sense out of what the lyrics might be. In other words, not being able to decipher the lyrics never makes the music better. (Well, maybe it does if the lyrics stink -- just like I have a feeling I wouldn't have loved the '90s Mexican rock band Caifanes so much if their apparent new age poetry baloney was in my face all the time, so thank God I didn't speak Spanish too well -- but like I said, I usually don't check lyric sheets to make sure.) But again, that's just me. What the heck do I know.

Sorry about the beer-stained rant. And yeah, Phil, that does indeed suck about Metal Edge. You should be proud for what you pulled off, though....

(xp Also, it's not just a matter of "communicating" stuff -- like, emotions or whatever the fuck -- it's just that, way back when, hearing the lyrics was part of what made listening to metal fun. And I miss that. It still happens sometimes, but just not nearly as much. But then again, right: I'm old.)

That's why I asked if it was intentional, xhuxk. I can't imagine someone would obscure the lyrics that much if they weren't making some sort of musical point by doing so. I mean, why wouldn't you want someone to know what you're singing?

'cause that would make you look like a rock star maybe? heavens. tru metal is all about the music, man!

For the first 20 minutes of the new God Forbid album I was ready to dismiss it, it wasn't clicking with me at all, but yikes, does it ever step things up in the second half. Sort of reminds me of the epic direction Machine Head took a couple years ago. If this was an LP (I suppose it will be sooner than later), side two would be a fucking beast.

Not convinced by Sólstafir at all. It's about half as heavy as I expected: there are some interesting textures, but it all sounds a little too ... slick. And this is one occasion where I'd far, far rather have Cookie Monster vocals than post-FM-rock yelping.

I've come around to thinking almost the opposite (maybe the converse) about lyrics: including voices as elements of your music shouldn't constrain you to making them linguistic and/or primary. I think even in music where the words are perfectly understandable, reading them as a coherent expository text is fairly rarely an important part of what I do as a listener. Not that it isn't intensely cool when it happens (lyrics had a lot to do with my favorite album of last year being Frightened Rabbit's, for a recent personal example), but I don't think it should be taken as a necessary goal or an inherent virtue, any more than you'd say "not putting overdrive on the guitars never makes the music better".

Actually, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure more music would be improved by increased guitar distortion than by increased lyrical clarity. (But maybe this is just another way of saying that I like metal.)

^ Agreed ... and reminded that I've not heard that second FR album yet. The first one was fucking awesome, and all I've heard is that the second is even better.

Re: Sólstafir ... I can actually imagine there'd be times I really, really wanted to listen to something like it. I might have been a bit hard. It's probably just because it wasn't what I expected at all.

Well, what I will say is that there are definitely worse vocal metal sins out there than incomprehensibility. Which is to say that, given the choice, there's a good chance that I'd still rather listen to your average death-metal barfer than your average screamo whiner or constipated post-grunge moaner or nu-metal bellower. Thing is, I've got several hundred loud rock/metal/whatever albums on my shelves that prove that those crappy alternatives are hardly the only ones out there. And my question is always, if lyrics really don't matter, as Glenn suggests -- if you're just going to toe the stupid line and vomit like every other dime-a-dozen ogre out there -- why bother having vocals at all? (Actually, I sort of know the answer to that -- because most instrumental metal is even more boring than metal with shitty vocals. So it's a rhetorical question, sort of, but I thought I'd ask it anyway.)

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Or barf it.

your average death-metal barfer than your average screamo whiner or constipated post-grunge moaner or nu-metal bellower

Poll.

so the torche vinyl showed up today (HOTT), and since i was ordering from robotic empire anyway i grabbed their $20 "Stoney, Ambient, and Heavy" lot 6 CD deal. Any suggestions on where to dig in first from this list?

Torche - S/T
Red Sparowes/Gregor Samsa - Split
Kayo Dot - Dowsing Anenome With Copper Tongue
Windmills By The Ocean - S/T
Versoma - Life During Wartime
Stop It! - S/T

also sad to hear about the magazine, dude.

First Torche is probably better than Meanderthal. I like the RS/GS split, the kayo dot is good and so are Windmills By The Ocean and Versoma. Dunno who Stop Iy! are but looks like you got a good deal.

why bother having vocals at all?

I always thought the vomit vocals were basically to fortify the clubhouse. It's to keep people out. Or rather to make sure the people inside stay in.

To me, the vocals in extreme metal are less about communicating ideas through lyrics and more about being another instrument in the mix. I mean, vocals have always been that to some extent or another, but the growling just takes it to the logical extreme. It doesn't matter what they're saying -- it just matters that they are angry about it.

J3ff just pretty much nailed my thoughts on the vocals in extreme music, not much different I can say right now.

Picked up the new Cattle Decapitation (really good!), Cannibal Corpse (still evaluating), and the Demolition Hammer anthology (eager to dig into this) last night.

that demolition hammer thing is so boss

first disc, anyway

yeah i think i am kind of on the opposite side of mordy here (and maybe xhucx) where extreme metal with clean trad vocals kind of bugs me. throwing some dickinson/dio vocals on top of blastbeats just doesn't quite click. that said, my fave vocals on any metal record last year were on the Belphegor, which are actually kind of comprehensible in their own way.

worst offender by far is the screamo/clean vocal combo, which i just hate hate hate.

(btw, the "Stop It!" was the "plus one mystery CD of our choice" part of the deal, and so far it is kind of a misfit, really sounds a lot like Dischord Circus Lupus stuff with chugga distorto downtuned bass. probably just the tallest pile of stuff that wasn't selling. not bad in its own way tho.)

I think the very best extreme metal vocalists are the ones who can be really expressive through the growling. I think, more than anything else, that's the reason why Dimmu Borgir and Cradle of Filth have gotten as big as they have -- Shagrath and Dani Filth really know how to get across the emotion, even when you can't tell what they're saying (although those are definitely two of the more comprehensible singers).

And it's nothing to do with cartoon personalities?

Well, that certainly never hurts, but image alone isn't enough -- otherwise, Opiate for the Masses would be huge.

What really bugs me is when an extreme band that has a certain agenda or message they claim to want to convey refuses to print their lyrics. Like Gorgoroth, for instance. What's the point?

vocals in extreme metal are less about communicating ideas through lyrics and more about being another instrument in the mix

That's pretty much what I said above myself, by the way. (Just added that, though I acknowledge that's how modern metal vocals usually work, and I can live with it if it sounds good, I don't necessarily agree that makes it the best of all possible worlds.)

problem is that most vocals in extreme metal are more about being an instrument with an incredibly limited range

right -- and not just limited physical range, but limited emotional range, too. (i.e., 100% trumped-up "anger" all the time gets boring really fast.)

That's why I like singers like Stu Block of Into Eternity, who are versatile enough to capture a large range of emotion.

xp I mean, say what you want about the uselessness of lyrics having some kind of concrete linguistic meaning, but at least lyrics (in all kinds of music) have the effect of providing shades of feeling when singers aren't good enough to do it themselves.

Guys, new Jamie Saft ("Black Shabbis") is A++

http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/76/1056576.jpg

Instrumental virtuosity is essential in every facet of metal EXCEPT for vocals. Guitarists sit in their rooms and play all day. Drummers have personal trainers. The singer's job is to throw buckets of water on the crowd and get wasted after the show.

This is why I get excited when I hear about any metal band with a female vocalist. They're not nearly as lazy most of the time.

good growlers and screechers can be understood once you develop an ear for it. i can understand a lot of "vomit" lyrics that just sound like noise to my gf, for example.

like some posters above, i'm also not a big lyric guy. as long as i get the general gist, either through a good expressive vocalist, or just words here and there, i'm good.

the kind of vocalists i have grown to hate more than any other are these post-metal (or whatever the fuck people are calling it now) guys like the Cult of Luna guy. just these bland rage roars that shit all over whatever the band is playing, whether heavy and loud or slow and melodic.

I'm not a big fan of the belching vocals or the post-metal vocals, to be honest. Like, I can't even listen to Nile.

And I will say, sometimes when I flip through Stairway to Hell, I'm kind of jealous of the days when people could actually talk about the lyrics on metal albums.

The singer's job is to throw buckets of water on the crowd and get wasted after the show.

Hahah, okay, I just imagined Bruce Dickinson doing nothing but that. Opening notes of "The Trooper" starts, he just starts flinging water and not saying a word...

Huh, I recall being fairly fond of Nile's vocals (I've not heard their last few albums, so I wouldn't know if they've changed)
Hmm, though when I'm trying to call them up in my head now, I hear the Pessimist guy instead. That's not a good thing. "I'll kill her... before... you can... kill her!" Sigh.

I'm curious about that Saft album. I'm not really a fan, but a friend said it's quite nifty. It's all or mostly original songs, right?

Does anyone do the ultra-low possibly pitch-shifted gurgles anymore? That was a hoot for a while. Beherit etc, I mean. There were a few horror and porno grind groups that took it too far though.

The most absurd vocal style is the grindcore pig squeal. So stupid.

Esoteric are kings of ultra-low right now. i can't play their album around my girl without getting weird looks, though. might as well whip out a Magic card set or something.

i was listening to Devastation the other night and thinking there was a vocal style that worked pretty well over death/trash music. almost hardcore punk sounding.

*thrash

And grind core vocals are my least favorite of all, which is one of the big reasons I don't listen to a lot of it. Screw it, Chuck's right, extreme metal vocals suck.

haha

Huh, I haven't heard Esoteric since _The Pernicious Enigma_. Are they still doing that odd, odd, odd acid-nightmare style of doom?
I was really terribly fond of those guys when I was in my biggest doom phase. Last time I played _Epistemological Despondency_ it was somewhat perplexing.

It's not to my knowledge an established and in any way common vocal style, but man oh man do I hate the terrified dumbass commander vocals on Mayhem's Grand Declaration of War. That record had pretty good screeching though! Though I might've been fooled by the great relief I felt whenever the fellow stopped hollering about cold and damp stuff.

Esoteric has gotten a little more shoegazey, but yeah, same thing pretty much.

extreme metal vocalists need j0hn to pop in and set some ppl straight on this thread.

"Cobra! Retreeeeeaaaaat!"