DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

paying seven pounds-odd prescription charge for a little rustic phial of water seems a bit much

― a phenomenological description of The Eagles (Noodle Vague), Friday, 1 March 2013 10:57 (27 minutes ago)

fixxxxed

green party are fucking useless though, and believe me I've tried with them. where next?

― c'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le beurre (imago), Monday, 25 February 2013 15:22 (4 days ago)

yeah this again really

mind you homeopathy isn't the real enemy folks

It's not fetishisation, it's the fact that those ideals do exist, even if only in our hearts, and not on the Lab front benches.

What do you, when you have an ideal? Let go of it and embrace cynicism? I'm continually trying to learn & evolve, but the g-d- ideals get more radical the more I know about how fucked the world is.

isn't the problem that socialism needs everyone to actively work at it whereas capitalism only requires passive complaisance?

and y'know, we're collectively a bit lazy

I dont really have any ideals i'd expect to see on the front bench of a govt in the uk.

Our lot are doing a decent job, but then i'm a good deal more centre-right than this thread/ilx (and a good deal left of the political majority here)

and yr professed ideals arent much to do with labour 2013 aiui, im not claiming to know what % of mp's share them or what party comes close, but it's a long way from govt numbers, right?

Dunno if I'm idealistic about full blown state must own all this shit socialism but I think it might be possible to form a popular electable party that doesn't treat poor and disabled people as shit you can't scrape of your shoes. Maybe one that recognises that if the state has a role in welfare, health, defence, education, etc. then it should maybe have properly paid qualified people ensuring it fulfils that role without them having to test themselves against a free market/profit-oriented model that says "we can do all of that stuff cheaper and better apart from all the unprofitable difficult stuff we're going to chop at the earliest opportunity!"

Im not disagreeing with your ideals, im just saying that yes, that's probably a little idealistic

Had a brief moment of horror when the Lib Dems shoved their rag through the door yesterday (with apologies for any chloroform-related mental images this produces) with a headline screaming "Only the LDs can beat the Tories here!" and I mentally ran through my futile options before a minute of "oh god oh god there is nobody to vote for, nobody left who isn't an utter cunt"

then I drank some cider and went about my evening

onimo otm.

I'm not a red-blooded Socialist Worker toting socialist, but I fundamentally believe in not treating people like shit, and am not willing to release anyone still claiming allegiance to the left, however weak, from that ideal. I do happen to think that a govt run welfare state and national health service are the best way to achieve that, & unbridled capitalism is desperately harmful, but my main beef w/ the right is that they don't deal in compassion.

well yeah, but careerist party politics rarely deals in compassion

my solution would be a parliament of 500 randomly-chosen individuals from the electoral register, with the option to turn it down (just roll the computerised dice again!)

^^^this is the only fair and scrupulous way to do it and it'd be a damn, damn sight better than what we have now

I get facepalmy when, of all the debates they could engage with easily and win popular support, Labour decide they're going to focus on 'concern' about immigration. That and Miliband weighing in on Hilary fucking Mantel of all things - does he not participate in smart-people conversations at any point in his day? Because immigration is the ultimate subject in dumb-person conversation (or possibly penultimate, there's always the royals).

@imago, nope, it doesn't, but leftwing voters can demand a pretence at compassion, so we at least get a chance of the NHS not being sold for parts.

@suzy Yeah it seems dumb. But then I thought Lego Friends was insultingly stupid misogynistic crap, and it's boosted sales by 25%.

That and Miliband weighing in on Hilary fucking Mantel of all things - does he not participate in smart-people conversations at any point in his day?

i don't think he, or indeed cameron, is entirely to blame for the press splashing with recreational outrage like that. i mean that was the week cameron was in india, right, and presumably saying things of substance in speeches (repulsive things, but things worth covering nonetheless).

Because immigration is the ultimate subject in dumb-person conversation (or possibly penultimate, there's always the royals).

immigration is not a stupid topic per se, too (although i don't doubt he's going to say sth stupid). it's a lot more important than the early-90s-vintage culture wars twitter froth over the fucking gcse history curriculum, for example.

...Ray Hall, Beer, Baccy and Crumpet party - 235
Kevin Milburn, Christian Party "Proclaiming Christ's Lordship" - 163
Howling "Laud" Hope, Monster Raving Loony William Hill party - 136
Jim Duggan, Peace party - 128
David Bishop, Elvis Loves Pets party - 72
Michael Walters, English Democrats "Putting England First!" - 70...

hahahaha, only 90s kids will like this status, etc.

The sight of Tories squirming, ye cannae whack it but a horrible constituency nonetheless, I'm sure they are nice people individually but politically vile

it might be possible to form a popular electable party that doesn't treat poor and disabled people as shit you can't scrape of your shoes. Maybe one that recognises that if the state has a role in welfare, health, defence, education, etc. then it should maybe have properly paid qualified people ensuring it fulfils that role without them having to test themselves against a free market/profit-oriented model that says "we can do all of that stuff cheaper and better

I fundamentally believe in not treating people like shit, and am not willing to release anyone still claiming allegiance to the left, however weak, from that ideal. I do happen to think that a govt run welfare state and national health service are the best way to achieve that, & unbridled capitalism is desperately harmful

i don't think you'll get even half of this under any conceivable government thrown up under our existing political system now.

i don't have a dogmatic version of Marxism to peddle here, but i think it's important to realise that even a (not gonna happen) return to the economic and social climate of the 1960s/70s means we are inevitably fucked as a society, as a civilization, as a species.

I'm not calling for a return to the 60s/70s. My actual view is that we need to radically rethink the shape of democracy, dismantle pretty much everything, and urgently explore ideas such as prosperity without growth, if we are to stand a chance of survival. I don't think this will happen, and I don't think we will survive, tbh. But you can't put that kind of belief into yr everyday practice b/c the logical next step actually is a shooting spree.

hey, there's lots of other possible steps. even resignation isn't the only option. but i can't see "us" reasoning our way to safety en masse.

I dont understand yr meaning of 'survival' here

I'm struggling a bit with "prosperity without growth" myself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/23/properity-without-growth-tim-jackson

isn't that just malthusianism?

Aargh, "what's not to like" in the second paragraph. The rest of it appears to be the usual back to barter stuff.

as opposed to a regulated capitalism that never ends

High on the list is the need for us all to consume less "stuff" and to seek a type of prosperity outside the conventional trappings of affluence: within relationships, family, community and the meaning of our lives and vocations in a functional society that places value on the future.

i.e. live in old baked bean tin in middle of road and be grateful for it. What value on whose future?

as opposed to a regulated capitalism that never ends

Nobody seems to be coming up with a better, workable alternative, unless they mean set up a Trotskyite republic, hang the Queen etc. which is really going to get humanity places.

Yr ignoring efficiencies iirc

Survival = not being "...fucked as a society, a civilization, a species."

-What value on whose future?

Some value on the future of anyone who hasn't got the cash to build their own fortress in fifty years time. I don't think anyone needs me to detail the 101 ways we are ushering in the apocalypse at this point.

Eh i dont buy it tbh. We'll revisit in 50 years things are v likely to be better than now on almost any measure you wish to apply.

It's possible, but not if we stay on the heading we are now.

Let's start with biodiversity. Hit me up as to how you see that improving.

(I know that we were talking about the future in human terms, but stick with me; biodiversity underpins our ability to feed ourselves.)

Actually let's not do this here, it's p. much out of scope for the UK politics thread.

Dint wanna say, cos tbh im relying on experts for most of the answers tbrr

I spent 12 solid months researching for a game set in a near-future apocalypse, and realised fairly quickly that a lot of the things I went into it thinking were lol fiction are all too likely to happen, have already happened, or are in the process of happening and cannot easily be stopped. Game never went into development ofc. I did get a short story out of it, so hey, silver linings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/mar/01/eastleigh-byelection-voters-explain-ukip

One of the reasons I voted for Ukip is immigration. I'm worried about the dropping of the barrier in January. I fully expect 2-4 million Bulgarians and Romanians to come over. What's it going to be like? We're a small island. For me, we're full. It's not about race, it's about space. We haven't got the roads, we haven't got the infrastructure The future is 4 million Romanians stuck in a traffic jam on the M3.

The Tories have come in and they seem hamstrung by the Liberal Democrats. They can't get their policies through. So you will change this by voting UKIP?

It's important this country remains as good as it has always been. We can't keep letting our human and political rights filter away.
This seems strangely backwards - isn't the mantra supposed to be that our lives are ruined by courts of human rights and political correctness gone mad?

I'd always been a Conservative until about three years ago. We are no longer Great Britain. I did 22 years in the services fighting communism. For what? What did we achieve? Um....

We want out of Europe. The big local issue around here is lack of jobs. We don't seem to be able to find jobs for our younger people. I've got 12 grandchildren. When I look around, I think: 'Where are they going to find jobs, where are they going to find places to live?' I'm worried about crime as well. Come here on a Friday night, Saturday night, it's terrible when the pubs are turning out. Where are the boys in blue? Not to be seen. As soon as we get out of Europe there will be jobs for all and no more fighting at the weekend.

I haven't voted before but I've been impressed by Ukip. I drink in the Wagon Works pub where the party people have been having their dinner. They have talked to me about their policies and I agree with a lot of what they have told me.
Like what?
There's going to be more and more foreigners coming in and taking everything from us. It's diabolical. They come and get this and that.
Everything? This *and* that? It's difficult to refute such a specific claim.
We couldn't go to their country.
Um...why?

tbh I can't really adjust for all the evil that's been done in my name.

i hate everyone and everybody, does that count?

i really like people

8 months inside for the Huhne dawg

His and Hers matching sentences! But likely they'll be out in three months.

porridge is a dish best served cold

I've only just got round to reading the emails between Pryce and the Sunday Times journalist and... it's amazing how naive she is.

yeah what's that about? she had a QC neighbour advising her as well. "yeah, don't worry about it sure it'll be fine tbh."

Matt - could you summarize them in one or two sentences for those too time-pressed/lazy to do their own research? And whatever his sons text messages said too please?

And whatever his sons text messages said too please?

iirc "Fuck off Dad, I hate you".

"why the fuck is our name still huhne u twat x"

Most lol/sad thing about the father/son texts was CHuhne's inability to escape political "I hear your concerns but let's be reasonable" speak when his own son is telling him to fuck off for breaking up the family.

texts neatly summarized here

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/05/article-2273507-175B7CB1000005DC-565_634x459.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/05/article-2273507-17595797000005DC-954_634x470.jpg

i'd have more respect for Peter Huhne if the relationship broke down cos his dad was a Lib Dem

Peter Huhne, ILX display name generator.