generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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ha rereading it you're right it was in denver or sf

it could be denver but it sounds more like something an old person in sf would do

iatee, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 03:22 (eleven years ago) link

^yeah that occurred to me as likelier

Gunoka Cuntles (Matt P), Tuesday, 5 March 2013 03:23 (eleven years ago) link

also I like how getting a job at collegehumor is making it to a respectable career

iatee, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 03:23 (eleven years ago) link

xp also if it was in denver it would be the basement not the garage.

Gunoka Cuntles (Matt P), Tuesday, 5 March 2013 03:25 (eleven years ago) link

you have to register to read, but this is well worth it on securitized student debt: http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/03/04/1408332/having-toilet-papered-a-tree-students-move-on-to-trash-abs-market/

puts some things in perspective.

s.clover, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 18:01 (eleven years ago) link

and a followup on broader stuff: http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/03/04/1408892/damn-straight-im-a-college-grad-paper-or-plastic/

s.clover, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 18:02 (eleven years ago) link

I like this:

Assume there are two colleges (A and B) that would both like to move up in the rankings. College A can only move up in ranking if College B moves down (zero sum game). A college can move up in the rankings if it can raise tuition and therefore invest in the school by improving the facilities, hiring better professors and offering more extracurricular activities.

If College A increases tuition and College B does not, the result is the upper right corner, which is optimal for College A as it scores a “1” while College B drops by one. However, if College B also raises tuition, the result is the upper left corner, which leaves the rankings unchanged, both with “0”. If College A does not increase tuition but College B does, the result is the lower left corner, which is the best outcome for College B. The final outcome is when neither raises tuition, which is the lower right corner. The dominant strategy is therefore to increase tuition to avoid falling in the ranks (Chart 8).

iatee, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 19:16 (eleven years ago) link

I think people really underrate how huge a negative influence one stupid magazine has been on higher ed

iatee, Tuesday, 5 March 2013 19:17 (eleven years ago) link

unemployment was 10.8% in december 1982 so using 1983 wealth as a comparison point is sorta misleading

iatee, Monday, 18 March 2013 17:24 (eleven years ago) link

not sure I get your point. Under-40s had accumulated 7% more wealth in 1983 than today's under-40s, despite that 10.8% unemployment.

wk, Monday, 18 March 2013 17:32 (eleven years ago) link

haven't the measures of unemployment changed since 1982?

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, 18 March 2013 17:33 (eleven years ago) link

my point is that that it's a comparison that needs context, like the gap would prob be bigger if the start date was 1988

iatee, Monday, 18 March 2013 17:36 (eleven years ago) link

yeah I see your point

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, 18 March 2013 17:37 (eleven years ago) link

real problem is: "In some senses, twenty-somethings are collectively even better off than that blue line suggests. The fraction of 25-to-29-year-olds with a bachelor's degree has grown by almost 40 percent since early 80s, and while today that means more of them are saddled with student debt, in the long-run, it means they'll likely have higher earning power."

...unless the value of a bachelor's degree has in any way gone down in that same exact time period.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 18 March 2013 17:40 (eleven years ago) link

That's not that far from my post-college resume.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, 18 March 2013 18:36 (eleven years ago) link

that article really hit a raw nerve w/me more than most Onion articles

Heyman (crüt), Monday, 18 March 2013 18:38 (eleven years ago) link

I mean, English major from state school with mediocre GPA, writing for school newspapers and lit mags, non-fluent spanish, etc.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, 18 March 2013 18:41 (eleven years ago) link

haha yeah, that one is definitely funny because it hurts.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 18 March 2013 18:41 (eleven years ago) link

one month passes...

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/heres-how-little-math-americans-actually-use-at-work/275260/

haha, lower level white collar jobs

j., Thursday, 25 April 2013 06:30 (eleven years ago) link

blatant mathism on display here.

Spectrum, Thursday, 25 April 2013 10:19 (eleven years ago) link

that's not a thing.

Chuck E was a hero to most (s.clover), Thursday, 25 April 2013 12:39 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/are-student-loans-destroying-the-economy/275083/

questionable article, although it seems possible that maybe as bad as things are for college grads, degree is still better than no degree. Faint praise.

Great stuff in the comments though.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 April 2013 13:50 (eleven years ago) link

the argument only holds if we assume college really is an investment in human capital for the majority of people who go

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 13:55 (eleven years ago) link

in any case cars and houses are terrible investments too so it's kinda a wash

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:00 (eleven years ago) link

Is part of the problem that we've tried to convince generations that home ownership is an investment?

The Great Natterer (dandydonweiner), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:02 (eleven years ago) link

yes

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:04 (eleven years ago) link

the argument only holds if we assume college really is an investment in human capital for the majority of people who go

― iatee, Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:55 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah this was one of the thoughts I had reading it, that we might be getting an "average" that's distorted by the minority who get most of the gains from college education

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:06 (eleven years ago) link

From the comments section "According to Pew, only 42% of college graduates held college-level jobs, on average, from 2003 through 2011."

irl sigh

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:14 (eleven years ago) link

well also the 'college premium' is as much about how far the bottom has dropped as how nice it is in the middle. lots of people spent a lot of money and some of them signaled themselves into what's left of america's white collar jobs. great. I mean it's def a 'better investment' than an SUV.

xp

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:16 (eleven years ago) link

i believe all high school grads should invest in gold instead

乒乓, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:20 (eleven years ago) link

maybe also bitcoins

乒乓, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:20 (eleven years ago) link

oh and another thing that gets left out is the likelihood of leaving college in debt without finishing, which is high at lower-end institutions.

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:26 (eleven years ago) link

yeah that's a good point and also significantly higher for low income kids.

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:30 (eleven years ago) link

it's pretty similar to the "is law school a good investment" question -- it depends so much on the individual and the schools they can get into and the amount it will cost them that giving a generalized answer at all is kind of irresponsible

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:36 (eleven years ago) link

The debt issue is huge, even though it's probably easier to walk away from college debt than other kinds.

I don't know what to do about my kids or how to advise them on this issue.

The Great Natterer (dandydonweiner), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:39 (eleven years ago) link

wrong, it's harder to walk away from college debt than other kinds

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:40 (eleven years ago) link

to wit, it is not possible

resulting paste of mashed cheez poops (silby), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:40 (eleven years ago) link

not dischargeable in bankruptcy

huun huurt 2 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:40 (eleven years ago) link

move to finland

乒乓, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:41 (eleven years ago) link

yeah this comment is really good

Unemployed_Northeastern•3 days ago−

"Compared to cars and houses, higher education is a much safer investment."

It's funny that this assertation has no citing authorities behind it. Here are some:

Percent of mortgages in delinquency in September 2009, at the height of the crash: 14% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., under the "Mortgage Market" section. The peak subprime mortgage delinquency rate appears to be about 25%. Ibid.

Percent of student loans in repayment that are currently delinquent: 31%, according to http://newyorkfed.org/newseven..., page 13. And mind you, barely half of outstanding student loans (56%) are in repayment. The rest are in forbearance or deferral, which generally stem from being back in school or unable to make payments.

So student loans currently have a delinquency rate more than twice as high as the mortgage delinquency rate during the apex of the housing crash.

Is it a bubble? Well, let's look at some figures:

2000: Total outstanding student loan debt: about $200 billion

2008: Total outstanding student loan debt: about $450 billion

2013: Total outstanding student loan debt: between $1 trillion and $1.125 trillion, depending on the estimate and whether private student loans are included

Punch those numbers into a graph and see what kind of growth it represents. Hint: it rhymes with flexponential.

OK, but how about granulated data?

Well, according to the NY Fed Reserve again (page 9 of the above citation), both the number of student debtors and their average balance increased 70% between 2004 and 2012. While I don't have an identical data timeline for wages, I can say that that from 2000 through 2012, salaries for college graduates 25 and under dropped 8.5% http://www.epi.org/publication.... And we already know about the growth in student loan debt from 2000 through today. Its growth has outstripped everything in America, including health care costs. Meanwhile, if we look at the epi study closely, we can see that the real hourly wages of young college graduates has only increased by about one dollar from 1989 through 2012. If we look at http://stateofworkingamerica.o..., we can see that the real entry-level wages of college graduates have only increased about 10% for men and 15% for women since... 1973.

Is it a safe investment?

According to Pew, only 42% of college graduates held college-level jobs, on average, from 2003 through 2011. Nearly that same percentage were unemployed, working in high-school level jobs, or out of the workforce. Similar outcomes have been reported in labor studies out of Rutgers and Northeastern. Every graduate discipline and professional school, save for medical school and graduate engineering and comp sci programs, are in open crisis. That does not resemble an investment; it resembles a gamble; a bet of red or black on the roulette wheel.

Oh, and here are some things that apply to mortgage debts but NOT to student loans: bankruptcy protections, the Truth in Lending Act, the FDCPA, state consumer protection laws, and the statute of limitations.

Is it a safe investment FOR INVESTORS?

Yes: "SLABS [Student Loan Asset-Backed Securities, were are comprised of private and FFELP loans] were invented by then-semi-public Sallie Mae in the early ’90s, and their trading grew as part of the larger asset-backed security wave that peaked in 2007. In 1990, there were $75.6 million of these securities in circulation; at their apex, the total stood at $2.67 trillion. The number of SLABS traded on the market grew from $200,000 in 1991 to near $250 billion by the fourth quarter of 2010. But while trading in securities backed by credit cards, auto loans, and home equity is down 50 percent or more across the board, SLABS have not suffered the same sort of drop. SLABS are still considered safe investments—the kind financial advisors market to pension funds and the elderly....

Under the just-ended Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP), the US Treasury backed private loans to college students. This meant that even if the secondary market collapsed and there were an anomalous wave of defaults, the federal government had already built a lender bailout into the law. And if that weren’t enough, in May 2008 President Bush signed the Ensuring Continued Access to Student Loans Act, which authorized the Department of Education to purchase FFELP loans outright if secondary demand dipped. In 2010, as a cost-offset attached to health reform legislation, President Obama ended the FFELP, but not before it had grown to a $60 billion-a-year operation." Malcom Harris, http://nplusonemag.com/bad-edu.... One might also note that the two best years for SLABS were 2006 and 2007, right after private student loans were mysteriously and retroactively rendered nondischargeable in bankruptcy in 2005. What a strange coincidence, right?

Not that is entirely germane to the discussion, but the erstwhile, long-time CEO of Sallie lives on a 250 acre estate outside of Washington DC on which he put a private 18-hole golf course. Not a private club, mind you - he built an entire golf-course in his DC-area backyard. That's the kind of wealth student loans made for the for-profit lenders.

Is it a safe investment FOR THE GOVERNMENT?

Yes. Based on whose accounting methods you believe, the Department of Education will reap between 5% and 20% profit on each year's batch of lending, over those loans' repayment periods. This is primarily due to the DOE's ability to borrow at ~1% and lend out at 6.8% to 7.9%. Even on defaulted federal student loans, the government averages about 95 cents on the dollar AFTER collection costs, and about $1.20 before collection costs. Yes, you read that correctly.

Will new income-based repayment plans help?

Yes and no. While putatively keeping under-earning graduates out of default, IBR and PAYE accomplish little else. Interest continues to accrue and principalize on the underlying balances, which can lead to negative amortization (i.e. the balance grows after each payment). It wreaks havoc on one's credit score and ability to secure a mortgage or car loan. It removes whatever speck of tuition restraint higher ed had left (law schools are openly touting IBR/PAYE as reason not to care what they charge anymore). There is no guarantee these extremely expensive programs won't be cut under future austerity measures. And under current law, balances forgiven after the end of the 25/20 year periods are counted as realized income by the IRS and treated accordingly. These plans, then, are just longer, brutal versions of Chapter 13 repayment plans.

So, student loans really aren't like other loans, are they?

No. Over the years, as Congress removed preexisting all of the aforementioned consumer protections from student loans, their treatment began to resemble overdue tax bills or child support more than ordinary consumer debts. We give the most dangerous, anti-consumer debt instruments allowed under the law to the youngest, most financially naive members of adult society, after telling them it is "good debt" and an "investment in themselves."

Have policy makers known about this for awhile?

Yes. With some digging in your closest library, you can find such gems as:

- The 1986 book "Mortgaged Futures" by Marguerite Dennis

- A 1987 College Board report entitled: "Student Loans: Are They Overburdening a Generation?"

- A 1991 report by the National Commission on Responsibilities called "Making College Affordable Again"

So why hasn't anything been done?

It's complicated, but in short: everyone makes money off the system, as I outlined above. In addition to the lenders, investors, and government, universities received about $125 billion in student loans last year, as compared to about $30 billion in gifts - and it was nearly a record year for gifts. Student lending gives states the ability to radically defund their public universities without having quality suffer (at least facially). There has long been a revolving door between the Department of Education and the for-profit student lenders. And the largest higher education think tank in America, the Lumina Foundation, with its $1.5 billion warchest, was cofounded by two student loan companies and funded by Sallie Mae. Its public goal is to have 60% of Americans sport college degrees by 2025, up from roughly 31% today. Note how that would produce 15 years of growth for Sallie, who still lends, creates and sells SLABS, and administers and collects on federal loans on behalf of the DOE.

Is it going to get worse?

Yes. Entry-level hiring has been thoroughly gutted by the economy, the unpaid internship, outsourcing, and the presence of an increasingly desperate lateral market. Supplies of college graduates are set to become even more unwieldy, as the DOE has approved federal student lending for online, competency-based education, and the monetization of MOOCs is all but inevitable. See any number of stories on the Chronicle of Higher Education or Inside Higher Ed for more on these topics.

Look, I get that the Atlantic is pro-education. It makes sense. It's a magazine founded by the 19th century's leading intellectuals: Emerson, Longfellow, Alcott, Holmes Sr., Lowell, etc. Just about every staff writer went to Harvard or Princeton or similar, and no doubt your entire circle of friends works at Goldman Sachs or the State Department or IBM. Given the insane degree of illegal unpaid internships in NYC that journalists now have to go through, I would wager that most of the Atlantic's staff hails from the upper bounds of the family income scale. But you folk are outliers. Even if one were to embark on as slight an educational "downgrade" from Harvard to BC or Princeton to Rutgers or Yale to Conn College, they would find themselves in the midst of massacre - and we are still talking about extremely excellent schools. Once we get down to Open Enrollment State or Bogus-Veblen-Good-University or Federal-Loan-Trough-For-Profit, well, what's left to say?

I can appreciate that you are trying to spin already-historic lows for home ownership, family formation, and consumer spending for the 25-34 cohort as a good thing. Furthermore, this site, like Slate and some others, likes to publish articles with a "This is what is really happening with XYZ, despite all the headlines to the contrary." But you are way off-base with the future of higher education. Look to the handwringing and clenched fists of the people who work in higher ed and write over on the Chronicle or Inside Higher Ed. Only disaster awaits.

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:42 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, i got hit w/ that particular scam. it's a bummer :(

Mordy, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:45 (eleven years ago) link

I didn't realize they weren't discharged in bankruptcy (and that was in 2005?). Holy shit. That's onerous.

The Great Natterer (dandydonweiner), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:48 (eleven years ago) link

so if you haven't already opened a 529 for your kiddos, get on that, basically

resulting paste of mashed cheez poops (silby), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:49 (eleven years ago) link

well it depends how old your kids are. I think it's reasonable to expect things to look considerably different 10 years from now.

iatee, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:50 (eleven years ago) link

different enough that it doesn't make sense to pay down all student debt bc some might be ameliorated?

Mordy, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:51 (eleven years ago) link

My kids are 12/10/7. I opened up 529s for them when they were born. Have been scared for the past few years that I've been lighting money on fire.

Ugh.

The Great Natterer (dandydonweiner), Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:51 (eleven years ago) link

in ten years it will still be dumb to go to a private college, unless you get a full ride

Euler, Thursday, 25 April 2013 14:53 (eleven years ago) link


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