DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

I just keep thinking, at some point the reality of this all will bite and "the people" as a mass will reject it, on some level, Murdoch propaganda be damned. But then I think about the Iraq war and how many people marched against it and how it all happened anyway and how a certain bleak fatefulness infects even the discussion on ILX and it does begin to seem a bit pointless. I said to my partner yesterday, the only way any of this could be "worth" the pain its going to cause is if as a result such right-wing bullshit becomes unelectable (even under the guise of a nu-nu-"Labour") for decades.

I don't know. My dad was kept alive for as long as he lived by the NHS, we were fed, housed and clothed as a family by disability benefits, I was educated for free and was even able to gain a grant for my Higher Education. Much of this stuff doesn't exist any more, and the future of the rest of it seems highly questionable. I feel really hugely lucky to have been born when I was, and really acutely sorry for all those now growing up under similar circumstances to mine, who won't have any of the opportunities to escape, opportunities that were real life-lines to me. It's sickening to me, to see it all destroyed, and under the vestiges of making good on the debts incurred by those at the top.

Call me naive but I have detected a slight softening in attitude amongst the public... or am I sad deluded fool?

Softening towards the gov or those being steam-rollered by them?

The flattened victims. There's a reason the Tories are worried about the "nasty party" tag and I think they are worried that these reforms might be seen as too harsh, if not now then once the bodies start piling up.

I do feel like they've somehow skipped ahead to Poll Tax era Thatcher hatred/Back2Basix-era Major incompetence without any post-Falklands afterglow to bask in.

Not that I would recommend the Daily Record for any startling political insights but they had a headline at the weekend, "Worse Than Thatcher". By the way, don't know if people in England are aware that the SNP have switched to a Vote for the Union/ Get the Tories strategy.

General consensus (i.e. overheard on the bus/street etc.) is that Benefit Scroungers are getting what they deserve. Because it's a uniquely British thing to find a convenient scapegoat (unemployed/sick/immigrants) to cover up their own incompetencies, i.e. "I'm lazy and have rubbish ideas and worse opinions, so I'm leaving this country because you can't start a business here anymore with all the skivers and the health and safety and the asylum seekers and the EU and the terrorists and it's everybody else's fault my life is crap, never my fault."

... which was always the only reason to vote for independence anyway as far I can see (xp)

By the way, don't know if people in England are aware that the SNP have switched to a Vote for the Union/ Get the Tories strategy

???

I'm really uncomfortable with such anecdotal evidence to be honest, Marcello, as I find its often skewed by the nihilism of those who collect it.

Yes I'm not convinced that it's that black and white vis a vis the GBP's attitude. Also not uniquely British but recognisably British for sure!

By the way, don't know if people in England are aware that the SNP have switched to a Vote for the Union/ Get the Tories strategy

As in best way to avoid having to endure the Tories is to vote for independence

... in so many words that is

ah i see

What the British public does or doesn't think about welfare cuts (and that will change over the next two years anyway) won't do the Tories any good if they somehow manage the get through the remainder of this Parliament without delivering any growth.

What will do them good is if Labour can't come up with a plausible alternative.

By the way, anecdotal evidence can be very powerful; it's all most people have to go on.

Powerful, yes. Accurate, not so much. Delusions can be powerful, but are ineffective unless shared by many.

I actually think attitudes will change because this is going to be a bloodbath, there's going to be a lot of casualties

depends how the bloodbath is reported tbh

The thing is that many people in Britain - arguably most people in Britain, but somebody else can do the stats - do share this view, just as they shared similar views in the Thatcher eighties. Unless the Left can communicate with them on this very basic, elemental level then they are not going to persuade them to change their minds.

On a separate note: it's all very well George Monbiot saying let's give everyone in Britain a non-means tested basic income but how is it going to be paid for?

But I think this is going to be worse than the Thatcher years, and that the bloodbath is going to be harder to wall yourself away from.

Anecdotal word on the street/bus/pub round my way is nothing like Marcello's.

I doubt there will be a bloodbath. Most people will shrug their shoulders, quietly go "grrr" and go about their way. It is Britain; the absence of a written constitution and a tyranny as such gives its people no overt reason to revolt.

I'm sure the word on the street in Scotland is completely different, just as it was in the eighties.

guessing what people think is probably a waste of time. what do non-nihilists think will be a politically plausible reaction to the impending bloodbath? i.e. what policies are likely to be proposed and enacted by whichever opposition gets elected next go round?

I'll be honest I'm not hearing much "These benefit scroungers don't like it up 'em" where I'm working at present. Not that people know much about the the details of the reforms, though everyone has heard of the Bedroom Tax and everyone refers to it as the Bedroom Tax.

my old man, who's crept steadily rightward in his old age, was talking about despicable this is, and for the last few years he's usually been all about them terrible workshy scroungers

Well, Tories just sent up another shit balloon about possibly freezing or even reducing the minimum wage as a way to kick-start growth. RRRRRRAGE.

On a separate note: it's all very well George Monbiot saying let's give everyone in Britain a non-means tested basic income but how is it going to be paid for?

the land value tax? think these ideas are more palatable than communism but no more plausible.

Jesus, took marcello to inject sense itt. If only labour were in govt to.......make exactly these decisions, what a comfort that would be to the masses, god bless em.

What's going to be most visible is when families from London and other expensive cities start appearing throughout the country, who know's what's going to happen then. Universal Credit is an administrative clusterfuck waiting to happen as well.

What will do them good is if Labour can't come up with a plausible alternative.

I don't disagree, but at the same time things are so finely balanced that we could quite easily end up with another hung parliament next time over. The Tories are unlikely to win enough votes to win the election outright so anything could happen really.

I thought he'd think via the land value tax, but as that's taking toys away from rich people it'll never happen.

Britain's a global (tax) haven, so we'd better get used to being the world's butler.

Trying to gauge the nation is a fools' errand; I can screengrab people I was at school with saying awful things about immigrants and dole-scum and benefits scroungers all day long, and screengrab people I follow and who follow me on twitter being outraged that the Bedroom Tax is inhumane til I'm blue in the face. If I was to make any guess it would be that the nation is pretty split on this, but that most people probably aren't in full possession of the facts, because getting in facts is far harder than getting anecdotes.

Nothing in that Telegraph piece about the minimum wage being cut, as opposed to being capped or frozen.

Facts are complicated, therefore not a good story, and that's all British people want.

I can screengrab people I was at school with saying awful things about immigrants and dole-scum and benefits scroungers all day long, and screengrab people I follow and who follow me on twitter being outraged that the Bedroom Tax is inhumane til I'm blue in the face.

then we can argue whether nothing will change because people are inherently infected with some kind of original sin of apathy, or whether the best we ought to hope for is a slight recorrection in favour of the poorest under the auspices of the politico-economic system that created this situation in the first place, or whether it don't matter because London will be a sizeable lido within the next 100 years anyway

but most of all, let's be realistic, cos nothing succeeds like realism.

I'm afraid I agree with what is said here.

But last is the nagging worry that perhaps such vile conduct persists because it is not simply an NHS problem, as it was never purely a workhouse problem. That it is, instead, a human problem, not wholly eradicable by a restructuring here or a systems tweak there. Awful to contemplate, but perhaps this is what human beings will always do to those who are weak and vulnerable and in their power, unless actively constrained not to.

Perhaps we are all innately good but constrained to do horrible things to one another thru societal pressure and programming. Awful to contemplate, but perhaps my theory is as completably stupid and untestable as Jonathan Freedland's except without the apathetic "huh, human nature eh?" shite at the end.

I haven't seen very much proof to the contrary.

it's not provable is it? unless you can find some test subjects who have grown up without belonging to any kind of society whatsoever.

Calling anthropologists.

so "human nature" becomes a tool of those who want the world to not change, who want everybody to believe it cannot change because original sin is locked into our DNA and we are vicious vengeful apes incapable of cooperation or altruism. except if you look at other species of apes, they appear to be capable of cruelty and cooperation.

There was a thing in The Guardian (I think) recently about an anthropologist who'd done experimental economics tests with people from different cultures and determined that, actually, 'human nature' is cultural and relative and principles like generosity and selfishness vary massively across different societies.

apes also don't exist as unsocialised animals. the whole thing is a nullity. if you could prove to me tomorrow - you can't, but if you could - that human beings were hardwired to exploit others and take maximum possible advantage of every other human being they met, i would still say that our past does not dictate our future. we might be products of an unbreakable chain of cause and effect but we're compelled to think and behave as if we had free will and free will means the freedom to say "this isn't right and we must find ways to change it"

or to say "fuck it, people are bad, I'm pulling up the drawbridge". either way.

We're not compelled to think anything, unless by governments.

In reality this means the freedom to say "weak people? It's their own fault, they should get up off their arses if they want to change their lives, in the meantime let's stamp on them for fun, means more reward for us!" If you work long hours in shit jobs for next to no money then of course you're going to resent what you SEE as people getting everything for nothing, regardless of whether or not it's true.

apes huge fans of rent supplement

The Derby fire conviction will take this off the front pages of most of the tabloids anyways, and the father's position as a benefit claimant with loads of kids is hardly going to help if they do want to make a point, which they probably will.

the timing of that story and its unsympathetic protagonists is so unfortunate

yeah it's a real tragedy how he's not a tory huh