A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

It may have been mentioned already, but the article's glaring omission is the 90s/00s indie blues strain, from Jon Spencer/Trux through to White Stripes/Black Keys etc. Especially weird when he remarks so much on Jagger and Zeppelin's blues influence.

If some right-wing commentator wrote that "black music" (i.e. rap, RnB, etc) was "anti-intellectual" because of its abandonment of the best characteristics of "white music" (i.e. melody, general musical sophistication, etc) and would be all the better for acting "whiter" I can't imagine ILM doing anything different than dismissing it out of hand and seeing it's main idea to be pretty funny. Why do we take this idea so seriously and take it so axiomatic that music that's made largely for and by white people would be better should it incorporate "blacker" sounds?

I I remember the prominent general music critic Henry Pleasants made this very complaint about "loss of black influences" when he first heard the Velvet Underground. What a surprise that bands that follow in their footsteps should not break away from the trend!

Here's an excerpt from my posting on this for those of you who don't feel like jumping off this thread to look:

"On the surface the argument appears to be a bold attack on a very early nineties music-crit trope: white people stole rock from black people (see Public Enemy's "Who Stole the Soul", Living Colour's "Elvis is Dead" etc., ) While carefully acknowledging the material and profile disparities between white and black artists Frere-Jones posits that this sort of musical mixing is a Good Thing (though terming it miscegenation is the sort of attention grabbing move that hints at the real purpose of the piece).

Whether or not you think cultural mixing is a Good Thing (I do), the argument that he puts forth goes further by suggesting that "indie rock" has undergone a racial purification that has systematically cleansed "black" music from the musical melting pot. Leave aside the lack of black musicians in indie rock, is this true? And how does one prove it? Brian Wilson, an acknowledged latter-day indie touchstone, is invoked as a touchstone of all things white, but how white can a guy be when his band steals their first hit from Chuck Berry? Arcade Fire is exhibit A in the articles first paragraph but can't the argument be made that "My Body is a Cage" is a descendant of blues dirges from the 20's and 30's.

No, says Frere-Jones, the beat isn't right. And here we come to the real nub of this piece: He doesn't like the way indie rockers drum. They don't swing, the bass players don't groove, etc. Which may be true (though not in the case of Spoon say, or Afghan Whigs) but so what? Is this a racial thing or just a mode of expression? Even one of Frere-Jones chosen whipping boys (to trade in another charged term) Pavement, fail to hold up under close examination. While pointlessly mocking the lyrics to "Grave Architecture" he fails to note the very swinging section of the song that occurs right before the final rave-up -- a section that could be described as jazzy.

Really what the article strives for is to make a splash and that it has done. Frere-Jones does a bit of extra-credit overreaching on his own blog, where he links the article to Lester Bangs incendiary piece on white supremacy and punk , which is a bit like appending an article on Grizzly Man to a piece on Winnie The Pooh."

If some right-wing commentator wrote that "black music" (i.e. rap, RnB, etc) was "anti-intellectual" because of its abandonment of the best characteristics of "white music" (i.e. melody, general musical sophistication, etc) and would be all the better for acting "whiter" I can't imagine ILM doing anything different than dismissing it out of hand and seeing it's main idea to be pretty funny.

or they might just start a lot of silly "Ask Geir" threads

x-post

rock artists dont take from new black music cos rock is dead and theyre too busy regurgitating old rock.

hollertronix-type artists are the guys doing what old white rock artists used to do.

"He doesn't like the way indie rockers drum. They don't swing, the bass players don't groove, etc."

basically sasha is annoyed that new white rock artists dont take from OLD black music, but then most new black music doesnt take much from old black music either.

" basically sasha is annoyed that new white rock artists dont take from OLD black music, but then most new black music doesnt take much from old black music either."

Interesting point...isn't Timbaland more Kraftwerk than James Brown? Or is it "black" because it's Timbaland?

these are not interesting points

I only speak for myself here...

Brian Wilson, an acknowledged latter-day indie touchstone, is invoked as a touchstone of all things white, but how white can a guy be when his band steals their first hit from Chuck Berry?

true BUT when people say "brian wilson" in recent indie context it almost always means "god only knows" and not "help me rhonda." (why people would rather sound like "god only knows" than "help me rhonda" is a mystery to me, fwiw.) i.e., it's wilson's diaphonous symphonic side that is most often referenced, not his 8-bar/12-bar side.

yes, only deej makes interesting points.

(argh, diaphanous. need ilx spellcheck.)

correct. lock thread xp

interesting point

when people say "brian wilson" in recent indie context it almost always means "god only knows" and not "help me rhonda." (why people would rather sound like "god only knows" than "help me rhonda" is a mystery to me, fwiw.)

Unless they are The Queers. (But yeah, I agree with the parentheses.)

"correct. lock thread xp"

mods, please delete all other replies in this thread barring this one.

Why did so many white rock bands retreat from the ecstatic singing and intense, voicelike guitar tones of the blues, the heavy African downbeat, and the elaborate showmanship that characterized black music of the mid-twentieth century? These are the volatile elements that launched rock and roll, in the nineteen-fifties, when Elvis Presley stole the world away from Pat Boone and moved popular music from the head to the hips.

What is he implying by saying that Elvis (Who is presumably supposed to represent Black Music© as discovered by White America©) was all about sex and Boone (representative of stale white America), by association of previous white music, was all about the head? (which is to say thoughtful pop music)

Sfj seems to be one of those authors that knows what would make for an interesting and controversial subject for a writing piece (in this case the implications of race on pop music) but without knowing how to actually deliver on the promise of the idea.

stealing black musical ideas vs. reveling in whiteness ... which is more white????

"without knowing how to actually deliver on the promise of the idea."

the basic idea of the piece is pretty much the same as the basis of simon reynolds' most recent book, that black and white musicians have stopped 'talking to each other'. i think sfj could have made clearer points, but its as though he stopped himself from making them, instead relying on safer ideas that sound like the stuff keith richards has been saying for decades, that modern rock doesnt have soul, blues, funk etc etc.

"which is more white????"

revelling in whiteness based on stealing black musical ideas.

The Beach Boys made fantastic soul music -- Wild Honey.

"Wild Honey" is by far the worst Beach Boys album ever. Even worse than the throwaway early Mike Love rock'n'roll stuff.

(OK, I withdraw that - being that they continued releasing awful albums into the 80s)

the king's back.

prepare for the pearls of wisdom

Sasha is apparently a fan of acts mixing "white" and "black" elements, blurring the notion of race. I guess he's a huge fan of Lionel Richie, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, Lenny Kravitz and Seal then. Or maybe not.......???

"Wild Honey" is by far the worst Beach Boys album ever. Even worse than the throwaway early Mike Love rock'n'roll stuff.

In that case, let me state my love for the drunken beach funk of Dennis Wilson. Even the man's sandy chest hair had soul.

brian wilson said pet sounds was meant to be his attempt at a sort of 'white gospel music' i think.

can somebody start a beach boys albums poll and move this shit the fuck over there.

MORE RACE TALK PLZ.

(seriously tho this thread was kinda on a roll)

SFJ listed Neon Bible as one of his 2007 faves sometime back. Keep the Car Running is in is top tracks of the year and he wrote a long piece about them from that time. Sort of don't get that, but oh well:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/02/19/070219crmu_music_frerejones

In any case, I feel the author limits his views on what it means to be 'soulful' in music, and is limiting what modes of expression are suitable for his taste. Keith Richards and Simon Reynolds say similar things, too.

I also don't think " so many white rock bands retreat from the ecstatic singing and intense, voice like guitar tones of the blues, the heavy African downbeat, and the elaborate showmanship that characterized black music of the mid-twentieth century" as he suggests. Again, music is an ‘expression’ and there is no definition of what is proper. Music should unify and get people excited, and on common ground. It does not have to have 'funk' to be soulful. A 'white' band does not need to collaborate with a 'black' band to be 'soulful'. It should be passionate, as well. The songs, need to be great enough for people to care. I think some of the bands he mentions in his thread do that in spades, which is more then I can say for UI back in the day.

theres something kinda essentialist about this whole thread - im pretty sure alot of white artists are boring & stiff for the same reason lots of black artists are, not because either of them are consciously rejecting blackness or sitting down & deciding to sound 'white'... same for black & white artists who sound vibrant/funky/soulful/whatever

Who cares if indie rock is bad or has boring beats or whatever? There is so much funky and interesting (and yes rhythmically-influenced by the African diaspora)(<---said with dorky white guy voice) music out there, just listen to that.

So piling on someone misquoting a musician by inferring they're racist is a "rowboat" while attempting an analysis of how a handful of indie bands aren't especially rhythmic is "the QEII." This has me more confused than anything in the New Yorker article. (Well, except "a funk band called Ui," which hit me the same way as reading someone call Sarah Vowell a "humorist" a few years back: not necessarily wrong, per se, but not something I'd have even imagined to be the case beforehand.)

so where is sasha to defend himself anyway

cashing the bonus check he was promised by the New Yorker if he was able to successfully stir shit with a fake controversy and beef up the hit count on their blog/podcast pages.

cha-CHING

haha when I first heard Wild Honey in '94 I was like, "this is an indie rock album!"

As long as they don't clap on the one and the three, Jordan, it's all cool with me.

wild honey is my favorite beach boys

sure, but isn't part of white indie the attempt to consciously sound like artists in the white indie canon? (moreso than other musics) and that over time NOT borrowing from other sources creates an even "paler shade of white" (xpost)

is this thread about...INDIE GUILT???

the podcast is a real laugh..."here let me illustrate my point about 'soulful' black-influenced music by playing you the same clips of Elvis Presley and 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' you've heard a billion times before"

SFJ listed Neon Bible as one of his 2007 faves sometime back. Keep the Car Running is in is top tracks of the year and he wrote a long piece about them from that time. Sort of don't get that, but oh well

see this is where some stuff gets pretty confused.. He's not saying he doesn't like the Arcade Fire. People are real eager to reduce any discussion to "I'm positing this, and also this, and therefore this music is bad!" but that's some freshman-year-of-high-school shit. He's saying that where once he found them compelling live, he didn't last time he saw them, and he has an idea about why that might be, and here it is. He is not saying "their music isn't like this other music I like, and therefore it sucks, fuck those guys." He's saying "it seems that this music is a certain way, let me describe it." Lots of people on this thread do great work parrying the description itself w/counterexamples and so on. But again, he's not saying "music that isn't funky sucks balls." He's describing - correctly or incorrectly. But avoiding doing the whole ridiculous "well, it's like this: so fuck that!"

oh god...I just got to the part where the interviewer presses him to name 90s/post-90s examples of indie acts that transcend the whole black/white divide and soulless, badly sung or badly played indie and one of his first examples? LIZ PHAIR.

and he just trotted the old "country music and hip hop actually have a lot in common" chestnut.

i'm not even mad at this guy or anything, but jesus, what a clown.

J0hn OTM.

Elvis Presley stole the world away from Pat Boone and moved popular music from the head to the hips.

I’ve spent the past decade wondering why rock and roll, the most miscegenated popular music ever to have existed, underwent a racial re-sorting in the nineteen-nineties.

J0hn is indeed bang on the mark.

anthony is going to give himself a stroke

this article sucks donkey dick