sidney lumet search and destroy etc

I think the whole movie is arguably seen through the Holden character's eyes, even if he isn't present, which may explain the perspective.

It's interesting because he started in TV in the early days. It made him less an "auteur" than a craftsman who is interested in finding the best techiques to convey the film's themes. So he has great knowledge of things like lenses... they mean a lot.

He's also really tuned in to how those techniques work on the subconscious - like in 12 Angry Men (search) how the shots keep getting tighter and tighter so it feels like the ceiling is caving in on the actors. I mean, the whole movie was shot in one room!

Most of his movies from the 80s on are pretty crapola though.

amst could you explain what you mean by this?

this is one of the more readable film threads in a while.

wow, this is just brilliant

roll over robert bresson

-- amateur!st (amateur!s...), February 27th, 2004. (later)

Seeing as how he made it in 1957 in the US studio system, yes, it's pretty noteworthy. I never said the guy was the greatest filmmaker alive for fuck's sake though. Just chiming in.

no all i'm saying is that that's a basic filmmaking technique that people used in the 1910s and onward, it's a nice technique and i'm sure there are some who are oblivious to it, but it doesn't really reveal any sort of creative genius on the part of lumet

in fact the range of stylistic options 'available' (in the 'have currency' sense) to contemporary hollywood filmmakers is in a certain sense narrower than it was in the 1950s

the quality of any of his movies is usually pretty incidental to his involvement.

You don't have to think he's a 'genius' to find this absurd. It's not like he throws the actors onto the set and starts rolling.

Prince of the City, just out on DVD, holds up real well -- more complex and tragic than Serpico. Lumet's comments on the 3 visual styles he used are illuminating.

Hmm.

and let's just thank God dePalma didn't direct Prince of the City as planned.

I'd like to think that Nancy Allen would fit into the ensemble nicely.

no, Lindsay Crouse is great in about 4 short scenes as Treat Williams' morose wife.

"The Offence" is pretty powerful. Haven't seen it in a long time tho.

Did he do "The Pawnbroker"? Even longer since that's been on telly!

"morose" and "Lindsay Crouse" are inseperable.

Re-saw The Verdict a couple of months ago...holds up better than expected, but the victory still seems forced, and the "tragic" ending too determinist.

well, that's just another Paul Newman comeback movie.

Lumet directed the ILX poll-winning classic Dog Day Afternoon, but perhaps it was pretty incidental to his involvement.

Sorry, Morbs -- Treat Williams gives one of the more unwatchable lead performances I've ever seen; however, Jerry Orbach gives his best screen perf. Nice creepy bit by Bob Balaban, pouring Bud in a hotel suite.

Pauline Kael otm: "Treat Williams has a very closed face—the kind of opaque face that is like a brick wall in front of the camera. And that may be why Williams, as a New York City police officer who agrees to be wired and to obtain evidence about corruption in his unit, plays each scene as an acting exercise—going through so much teary, spiritual agony that you want to throw something at him.

Good god I had no idea people hated Network so much! I saw it recently and loved it. Like Natural Born Killers, I didn't think it really 'worked' as a critique of exploitative TV journalism. If you aren't digging deep for satire or realism they're both just fun, fucking crazy rides. I thought it was fucking hilarious! The friendship between the two old broadcasters was pretty genuine. And maybe it's just because I loved how everything looked in the '70s: the warm, detailed wood of the news desk, the curlicue stairs and boldly patterned drapery of the lady's apartment. Why is everyone dead set on looking so anesthetized and ugly today?

I do think it works pretty well as a commentary on how people exploit/treat people with mental problems.

gabbneb otm here re: network

it's no longer a mildly hysterical vision of the future but a mildly satiric description of the present

anyone else looking forward to Before the Devil Knows You're Dead?

I like Network more than Eric, but I enjoy it as opera, not realistic cinema. (My favorite William Holden performance too).

I wouldn't want realism in a film like that because the depressingness would make me unable to finish it, if I could even start watching it.

Kael's quote about Treat Williams is exactly why I'm excited to see Prince Of The City. Oh, sweet, sweet irony.

I enjoy it as opera, not realistic cinema

agreed

Williams doesn't even give a fun, juicy bad performance -- no "THIS IS A BIG TITTED HIT!" Duvall-style hoohah here.

the way the last few scenes in 'prince of the city' play out is great. that last line richard foronjy gives him before the elevator closes, i can't tell what's more despairing: if he's lying or telling the truth.

i also wonder if the opening shot is intended as taking place before or after the events in the film?

orbach is awesome, love the deliberate wipe-off of his hand during the last conversation between him and TW.

yeah, but did you like the MOVIE?

i call them "films", alfred

The key to understanding this movie is to realize that William Holden is playing an older version of his character in Sabrina.

Not that I like either one of those movies.

assorted local-pro thoughts re NYC retro:

http://www.thereeler.com/features/tell_me_about_sidney.php

and, you knew it'd be here:

http://www.nypress.com/21/6/news&columns/feature1.cfm

Lumet did not make the quintessential New York movies. These would be My Man Godfrey, A Man’s Castle, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Gentleman’s Agreement, On the Corner, The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3, Annie Hall, Do the Right Thing—films about the struggles of the working class and the ethos of ethnic strivers. Instead, the films that make his reputation are the ones that herald the skullduggery of the city’s movers-and-wreckers; that is, the power fantasies of New York’s media elite. Media wonks like to pretend blue-collar virtue while enjoying the benefits of white-collar luxe—but without showing intellectual pretense. Lumet gets celebrated for making New York magazine or Daily News movies; these aren’t snotty New Yorker magazine movies but a modish version of blue-collar pulp. To have influenced David Chase or George Clooney is nothing to be proud of.

the pawnbroker (sidney lumet, 1965)

Another thread I missed entirely. I am surprised to find it full of hate for Network. I like Eric H's observation that it works as opera... it works very much like that, actually. Everything in it is WAY over the top, unapologetically. See the scene with the spurned wife, who is never heard from before that or after. Or Ned Beatty's completely awesome "corporate cosmology" speech. Or... any of it, really. It's one of my favorite movies, despite the fact that I know it's a bit of a mess.

https://i.giphy.com/media/11mYSZihIu0q40/giphy.webp

https://i.imgur.com/uz3HzzJ.gif

NFOM is good not bad I think but it does feel like a Lumet greatest hits. It's got nothing on Q&A, Prince of the City, or Serpico as far as his police corruption pics. I've got zero memory of Garcia in this one, but remember Holm and Gandolfini really nailing their roles.

Look, I'll put my vote behind Network if the moderator agrees to leave off Before the Devil Knows You're Dead

i just watched before the devil knows yr dead

as the film gang here are always wrong abt movies i thought i might enjoy it -- lots of ppl shouting and cursing for two hours 👍🏽 👍🏽 👍🏽 -- but boy what a dumb movie

maybe the gang knows best after all

Let that be a lesson to you

Ethan Hawke's accent is a poem.