craftsmanship, consumerism, virtue, privilege, and quality

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (2150 of them)

Yeah, outside a few neighborhoods in Brooklyn (and the circles of people who regularly eat in trendy restaurants) I don't think it's an issue that crosses people's minds that much. There's almost no visible "locavorism" in my neighborhood. Maybe it's visible at Whole Foods - I don't shop there. It's not like there's any real threat to the food system as we know it right now.

HOOS next aka won't get steened again (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 August 2013 16:06 (ten years ago) link

Community gardens aren't even my particular thing, but I could probably think of 3 benefits of them that aren't remotely addressed by that article. All the whole-life improvement stuff, understanding where food comes from, teaching kids about growing things, encouraging people to eat fresh veg & fruit by giving them a stake in them, just for starters.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 9 August 2013 16:16 (ten years ago) link

I think there are important differences between community gardens and the kinds of urban farms he's mainly talking about.

HOOS next aka won't get steened again (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 August 2013 16:22 (ten years ago) link

But yeah, I think there's probably benefit to every city having some urban farming, it's just not the kind of thing that we can or want to scale to account for a significant part of our food supply (except maybe in cities like Detroit that have huge amounts of unused land).

HOOS next aka won't get steened again (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 August 2013 16:27 (ten years ago) link

I've thought about that before but I'm fairly certain no soil in Detroit is clean enough to grow food in--trucking in the topsoil and/or cleaning up all that land is prohibitively expensive and complicated.

Also yes, block gardens etc are different from the farms he's talking about, but he's ONLY TALKING ABOUT one arm of the local food movement. It feels like he just chose the one he could "debunk" and ignored the others.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Friday, 9 August 2013 16:38 (ten years ago) link

hmm good point in re Detroit

HOOS next aka won't get steened again (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 August 2013 16:40 (ten years ago) link

i too think that fresh fruit and vegetables are better when they have steak in them

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Friday, 9 August 2013 21:16 (ten years ago) link

was it the new yorker that had that article a long time ago about how much less energy people in cities use? per person or whatever. that article was ahead of its time. maybe its still online.

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:24 (ten years ago) link

when i lived in philly i ate a LOT of new jersey produce in the summer. there was so much from jersey. great stuff too. you could get normal jersey vegetables or fancy vegetables. they had it all.

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:26 (ten years ago) link

okay, i should really read that article. i'll read it now...

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:26 (ten years ago) link

new jersey has lots of great farms. but they are great actual farms. it is a state with lots of farmland.

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Friday, 9 August 2013 21:32 (ten years ago) link

its the garden state, iirc.

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:33 (ten years ago) link

i'm already confused by that article cuz he says people in nyc want more gardens and then he talks about gas mileage from roscoe new york.

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:34 (ten years ago) link

eh i can't read the whole thing. when he starts blasting CSAs - you don't even know what vegetables you will get you better really like vegetables! - what a dummy.

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:40 (ten years ago) link

even the whole gas mileage semi truck/freight train travel thing is dumb. as if a train from california stops in front of every grocery store and unloads its produce and saves precious energy. that train unloads and a million trucks load up with produce and then navigate endless miles of city traffic to get the friggin' carrots to grocery stores. dummy.

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 21:47 (ten years ago) link

reading scott's posts in a dr. steve brule voice

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Friday, 9 August 2013 21:52 (ten years ago) link

lol me too

It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Friday, 9 August 2013 22:20 (ten years ago) link

i don't know who that is are you guys makin fun of me again!?

scott seward, Friday, 9 August 2013 22:31 (ten years ago) link

most importantly, Brooklyn Grange is in fucking Queens. It should be called Queens Grange.

dan selzer, Friday, 9 August 2013 23:08 (ten years ago) link

scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Vg9PUbP30

stefon taylor swiftboat (s.clover), Saturday, 10 August 2013 00:45 (ten years ago) link

one month passes...

that pocket isn't level.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:44 (ten years ago) link

very astute

your authentic guitar playing self (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:45 (ten years ago) link

it's my craftsman's spirit-level eye.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:45 (ten years ago) link

totally appropriate if you're a fireman on a steam train.

call all destroyer, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:47 (ten years ago) link

have people always had such a strong desire to wear work clothes? i mean people who don't actually do a lot of physical work for their job. maybe it goes back to wearing costumes as a kid.

scott seward, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:49 (ten years ago) link

sometimes i miss my custodian's uniform. and my walkie talkie. i don't really though. the pants were itchy.

scott seward, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:50 (ten years ago) link

when I was 14 I went through a dickies catalog phase (along with a group of friends). But at least that was relatively cheap.

#fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:52 (ten years ago) link

I hear that in the workers' paradise, the cotton denim isn't fair trade. :/

Ma mère est habile Mais ma bile est amère (Michael White), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 18:56 (ten years ago) link

have people always had such a strong desire to wear work clothes

i think: no, for the most part.

i have a thought about how the rapid rise in the popularity of workwear happened in paralell to the crash in '08, where it was suddenly gauche to dress like a wall street banker even if you were top 1%. when the top percentile of the economy quickly recovered, there was still a sort of nationalistic adherence to americana and heritage brands, but became more and more expressed through traditional & preppy styles. at this point even that's passe and we're on to bold status dressing again and worshiping italian style tailoring

your authentic guitar playing self (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:04 (ten years ago) link

i blame ralph

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/HmxNny4hY7_l.jpg

scott seward, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:09 (ten years ago) link

but not really. he's been doing that forever.

scott seward, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 19:10 (ten years ago) link

in fact it's possible to see in that specific element and the general motif (I was going to say 'overall motif') an attempt to resolve some of the things we're talking about.

the general motif is industrial labourer or czech robot if you like. the specific pocket is individualism, and a gesture to idiosyncratic amateurism of the sort Treeship was talking about upthread.

i kind of differ on this point. in furniture the main thing i admire is the enthusiasm of the novice.
― fervently nice (Treeship), Friday, 26 July 2013 17:10 (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think that view represents - if you'll forgive me for pigeon-holing, TS - the post-machine age view of craftsmanship (I'll keep what historically speaking i think is an inaccurately gendered... sexed.... word (i'm tempted to say 'cisword' - is that a thing).

Romanticism is the lodestone here, (or maybe Rousseau) but the useful waymark is William Morris and the Pre-Raphaelites. There's a fetishisation of a projected pre-renaissance Merrie England in their approach - utopianism partly defined by 'pre-knowledge'. Don't want to get into scholasticism v renaissance approaches to knowledge cos i'd totally expose myself, but part of the reason I used the phrase 'machine age' rather than 'post-industrial' is because between the 13th and 15th centuries I think notions of craftsmanship were essentially forged by early forms of industrialism which ran in together with the early renaissance and urbanisation - there is an assumption implicit in fetishised medievalism that links pre-knowledge with pre-accountancy, pre-urban, pre-industrial landscapes. And not entirely wrongly so - it was the moral fetishisation that was surely wrong.

What characterised those pre-machine age notions of craftsmanship? Guilds, towns, money, men, Hansa, weaving, credit, merchants, houses and families, division of labour. (One point is that pre-machine money=fineness, with post-machine age craftsmanship money=uniqueness or at the least localness/individualism, not precluding fineness). Craftsmanship had a reason for its guilds, its closed shops, its special language, its rituals, its special taxes, its houses, its special days, and artisanal rarifying of skill, all designed to keep people from imitating and replicability - a monopolistic administrative con, a controlled market. . We want it industrial, but not tooo industrial dahling (see again the denim overall). We want what our neighbours have, but not what too many of them. Craftsmanship was controlled industry, the start of the industrial revolution.

In fact the actual making of things took place everywhere - villages of course had their cartwrights, their shoesmiths and - worth saying they needn't be *fine* in such circumstances, though no doubt some had better reputations than others. This is the late 19th C 'medievalism' aspect, I think. Towns themselves were still heavily rural:

Things had barely changed in 1722, when a treatise on economy deplores the fact that artisans instead of peasant were concerning themselves with agriculture in the small towns and princedoms of Germany. It would be better if everyone 'kept in his own station'. Towns would be cleaner and healthier if they were cleared of livestock and their 'piles of dung'. The solution would be to ban all farming in the towns, and to put it in the hands of those suited to it'. Craftsmen would be able to sell goods to peasants; peasants would be sure of selling the regular equivalent to townspeople, and everyone would be better off.
(this is Braudel, btw - it indicates that the simplistic town/rural pov wasn't entirely true, and also that it was true enough to attempt to see a theoretical division).

What's really interesting is that even at the time the holders of the money - men, Houses, guilds - looked to inexpensive labour out of town:

Moreover, in Flanders and elsewhere, where the towns had established a sort of industrial monopoly in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, there was a massive exodus of urban industries to the outskirts of the towns in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, in search of cheaper manpower, outside the protection and hawk-eyed supervision of the urban craft guilds. The town lost nothing thereby, controlling as it did the wretched rural workers outside its walls and managing them as it wanted. In the seventeenth century and even more in the next, villages took upon their weak shoulders a very large burden of craft working.

+

'the putting-out system' – 'The rural artisan worked at home, helped by his family, while still keeping a field and a few animals. Raw materials - wool, flax, cotton - were provided by the merchant in town who ran the operation, received the finished or semi-finished product and paid the bill. The putting-out system thus combined town and country, craft and farming, industrial and family labour, and at the top, mercantile and industrial capitalism.

Marks and stamps of fineness were needed to preserve against imitators or interlopers, but were also needed because, like most industrialists, they were always looking for the cheapest form of labour to provide the best quality producet. I'm sure the were workers more skilled than others, that's because they didn't allow others a look in. Division of labour also helped - you could split the highly-skilled and more expensive from the mere producers. In terms of gender, families, women and children all worked beside men at the lowest-paid levels. Once you start getting getting into more specific and higher-paid areas, you start to see gender division, not all one way. Are the words a guide here? Tailor, sempstress etc. Probably not entirely.

Interesting to note India in this pre-colonial period - a 17th C (I think) traveller was astonished to notice their vastly superior metallurgy with vastly inferior production processes involving hoe-like instruments, and no division of labour:

'...they had succeeded .. in producing a crucible-fired steel of exceptional quality, which was exported at high prices to Persia and elsewhere. In this respect they were ahead of European metallurgy. They worked their own metal, producing ships' anchors, fine sidearms, swords and daggers of every design, good hand guns and respectable canon (not cast but made of welded iron bars hooped together).

er, regarding division of labour, i've found this scrawled note, and I'm not sure what's me and what's quoted, sorry:

By definition much of this form of historical craftsmanship died with the industrial revolution. And this pre-industrial version of craftsmanship, efficiency was a vital element to a good craftsperson - you can spend time making one good sword, but can you make many of them, over and over again. Technique means the ability to replicate the skill in a way that is able to generate you money. There is nothing utopian about this. We are not looking at the creation of a world of one-off ideal items, some sort of Platonic heresy - the craftsman who makes the single ideal sword, such a thing would be worthless. Or to put it in a less philosophical way a European traveller to India in the 18th Century was astonished at the deficiency of tools, which meant that a sawyer could take 'three days to make a plank which would take our workmen but an hour' (Pierre Sonnerat - p504 The Perspective of the World)

Who could fail to be surprised that ‘the fine muslins we seek so eagerly are made on looms composed of four pieces of wood stuck in the ground?’ If the Indian craftsman nevertheless produced masterpieces, this was the result of extraordinary manual dexterity, further refined by extreme specialization: 'A job that one man would do in Holland here passes through four men's hands before it is finished'

Anyway, machine-age industrialism fucked up all that European protectionism of craft, and splintered notions of craftsmanship into all sorts of paradoxical and contradictory somewhat idealistic elements that were taken up late 19thC to form the modern notion of craftsmanship.

To take one example: if things aren't replicable by machine, and it's possible to get from there to saying it's the individualism that matters more than the replicability - ie it matters less whether it's a good chair, more whether it's a chair made by an individual.

It would be unfair to characterise the William Morris set like that of course - they were all about the design, and one of the more interesting case studies wrt the transmutation of notions of craftsmanship is typography.

It's essentially an inherently industrial method of formally necessary design. It does not require vast amounts of labour of course - that is where it differs to the industries around cloth, say. But that is also what makes it interesting. I'll take the William Morris set, who designed their own Dove typography:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Doves_Press_Bible.jpg

It was designed by Thomas Cobden-Sanderson in the Morris environment of Hammersmith on the banks of the Thames. In an argument over the rights of who had to use it, ie replicate its image, Cobden-Sanderson, threw the matrices and letters over the Hammersmith Bridge by night:

And now I am on my guard, and throw only type, and clear of the bridge … I have to see that no one is near or looking; then, over the parapet a box full, and then the audible and visible splash. One night I had nearly cast my type into a boat, another danger, which unexpectedly shot from under the bridge! And all nights I fear to be asked by a policeman, or other official guarding the bridge – and sometimes I come upon clusters of police – what I had got in my 'box' … Hitherto I have escaped detection, but in the vista of coming nights I see innumerable possibilities lurking in dark corners, and it will be a miracle if I escape them all. I am doing this wholly 'on my own'; no one is aiding me, no one is in my confidence, no one, not even Alice or Albert, and of course not Annie, knows.
(Annie was his wife).

You can interpret this as expression of individual ownership, of idiosyncrasy, of the post-machine age Morris utopianism - reproduction of the product is post-lapsarian. After this reaffirmation and symbolic expression of the death of artisanship, it's interesting to follow typography in Britain. There is a direct line through Edward Johnston (tube typeface, + live near and knew Cobden-Sanderson), thru to Eric Gill (pupil of EJ's & famous designed of gill sans-serif of course), to David Kindersley (full-on morrisite, coulda shoulda woulda designed UK's new motorway and a-route road signage, honorary operation yewtree candidate), and his third wife, Lida Lopes Cardozo, who designed the gates for the British library:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/British_Library_Gate_Shadow.jpg

This is industrial artisanship - and let Lida Lopes Cardozo serve the death-knell on 'craftsmanship' as a word, and see this interesting quote – an English traveller (1793) registered surprised and delighted at the unwonted sight of peasant women near Peking breeding silk worms and spinning cotton: 'which is in general use for both sexes of the people, but the women are almost the sole weavers throughout the Empire'. ( (I don't know anything about the considerable and remarkable Chinese cloth industry, no doubt with its own fascinating development - it would be interesting to see whether notions of the craftsman are different in a society with a different development of pre-industrial industry)

BUT YES - weavers, always the weavers. Take 11th Century Flanders, with weaving an industry since Roman times, add English wool, and then a superplus of the Vikings, with their trade routes stretching into Russia and their wealth, a splendid market for high-quality textiles. This is on the start. The weavers are at the centre of everything imo. They smashed the traditional bonds of communal serfdom:

living near or on subsistence levels
traditional rights
hereditary and guaranteed tenancy of a piece of land
firmly embedded with kindred

they disappeared into something more volatile, more urban, psychopathically and heretically literate. I'd love to know whether their characteristic revolutionary chiliasm can be followed in any way to the late 19th Century craft utopianism of Morris et al, maybe via EP Thompson's revolutionary underground. Can't remember why this Hogarth pic seemed crucial to my argument at the time I was taking these notes, but here it is anyway:

http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/Archive/Images/Prent401.jpg

Can't remember what the title is either - let's call it The Industrialisation of Craft... wait! it's called Industry and Idleness. Maybe it was to reiterate the point about notions of craftsmanship essentially being merchant owned and governed:

Industries which made goods for export, on the contrary, had their economic basis in a rather primitive form of uncontrolled capitalism. notably in the great cloth industry it was merchant capitalists who provided the raw materials and who owned the finished product, which was sold on the international market. There the position of the skilled workers - the weavers and fullers - was precarious...
pp28-29 The Pursuit of the Millennium.

Possibly also illustrative of the genuine transformation of a craftsperson's occupation that was transformed to the point of notional destruction by the industrial revolution. Weavers! They're always at it:

www.youtube.com/embed/ekjSHUNODdg

(kinda prefer The Dixon Brothers version tbh, but couldnae find it).

Anyway the point, if I had a f'ing point, is that the denim overalls can be read in one way as a symbol of the complications of pre-industrial and post-industrial notions of artisanship. To bring it, importantly, to the pickles - notions of artisanship seem to me to be divisible between the individual amateur, but as the typographic example showed, that can grow into a meaningful tradition, that may or may not be contained within a family or House:

In answer to Hurting 2’s comment:

but it's just hard for me to believe that pickle-making is the kind of skill one needs to hone over a lifetime.
― PJ. Turquoise dealer. Chatroulette addict. Andersonville. (Hurting 2), Friday, 26 July 2013 13:52 (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink


I agree with Hurting 2, but I might make a distinction is between a person who makes pickles whether over a lifetime or no, and a handing down over several lifetimes knowledge of pickle-making. the one year journeyman pickle-maker is different from the family of pickle-makers. Pickle-Makers to Their Majesties, with their carefully seasoned oak-barrels, their vinegars derived of the finest vintages of Burgundy vinegars, their cucumbers grown in secret locations, specific leeward riverbanks that catch both the morning and evening light but are shaded from the midday sun by the dappled shade of sycamores, the secret timing of their preparation, ritualised as entire religions, dependent on the cycle of the moon, the mansions of the stars, and the aphelion/perihelion distances of the sun, their hieratic picklemaker robes. The contents of the recipes split between nine unknown pickle men, matching the nine wise men of the east, whose identities are a closely kept secret, and who only convene at intervals of prime-numbers in cloisters inaccessible to all but the very poorest and most humble. their pickles so refined that only a few may be allowed to consume it, they only know the secret words to be uttered at a certain few, shabby establishments that will bring forth from darkened back room the specific gherkin or cornicon required.

One has the ritual and ceremony... and also reliability... of the early industrial, pre-machine age of notions of craftsmanship, and the other an individual and localness and non-guarantee of quality. they bleed into each other - would reiterate the hippie-morris intersect point about cold-war notions of apocalypse feeding into the need to be able to do things yourself.

I think i can probably make an argument of mobile phone companies being crypto-Hanseatic Houses or Guilds from the above, but i can't be aris'd rite now.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:12 (ten years ago) link

fu tl;dr tbf

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:12 (ten years ago) link

also, i'm going to go spare if i don't work out soon how to embed youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekjSHUNODdg

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:13 (ten years ago) link

ah fuck tha lot of yers

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:13 (ten years ago) link

woah, nice. i'm gonna need a while to digest that but i'm psyched to read that massive post, fiz

your authentic guitar playing self (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:17 (ten years ago) link

fpd u for cisword but when i get a chance i'll take that on (on phone atm)

his LIPS !!! (darraghmac), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:21 (ten years ago) link

a few more fps in there if you take the time to go thru tbf,

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:24 (ten years ago) link

i look fwd to it

his LIPS !!! (darraghmac), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:27 (ten years ago) link

str8 fyre beautiful post fizzles

tho obv i'd contend that if you can't tell the difference in the pickle at the end of the day, yr process, however an interesting paragraph it makes, is a black box to which i am entirely indifferent

his LIPS !!! (darraghmac), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:37 (ten years ago) link

Pickle-Makers to Their Majesties, with their carefully seasoned oak-barrels, their vinegars derived of the finest vintages of Burgundy vinegars, their cucumbers grown in secret locations, specific leeward riverbanks that catch both the morning and evening light but are shaded from the midday sun by the dappled shade of sycamores, the secret timing of their preparation, ritualised as entire religions, dependent on the cycle of the moon, the mansions of the stars, and the aphelion/perihelion distances of the sun, their hieratic picklemaker robes. The contents of the recipes split between nine unknown pickle men, matching the nine wise men of the east, whose identities are a closely kept secret, and who only convene at intervals of prime-numbers in cloisters inaccessible to all but the very poorest and most humble. their pickles so refined that only a few may be allowed to consume it, they only know the secret words to be uttered at a certain few, shabby establishments that will bring forth from darkened back room the specific gherkin or cornicon required.

my eyes are filled with tears of laughter and wonder at this

it is so beautiful i'm swooning

your authentic guitar playing self (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:38 (ten years ago) link

yes, that was a truly incredible post

#fomo that's the motto (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:39 (ten years ago) link

i would, in all seriousness, buy a book about yr picklemakers

his LIPS !!! (darraghmac), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:43 (ten years ago) link

yeah actually today i went off into a reverie about the selection process for the replacement of one of the nine, involving peregrinations across mitteleurope in search of innocent and brave males, and curious women of independent thought, from areas of recondite geography being given quests to prove the purity of their pickle-making credentials so they may become one of the nine guardians of picklemaking. I'm on fucking holiday, I can do this.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:47 (ten years ago) link

it could be parfum but vinegary

his LIPS !!! (darraghmac), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:48 (ten years ago) link

was thinking of making some pickles myself but now am intimidated

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 21:58 (ten years ago) link

wdn't worry my dad used to make machine-age pickled onions that fucked your head in. used to sit there over christmas in front of the tv w acid reflux washing over us like fucking hallucinogens, watching 40,000 leagues under the sea or something, crying vinegar tears.

Fizzles, Wednesday, 11 September 2013 22:01 (ten years ago) link

oh I've pickled vegetables, that's easy. no I mean actual pickles. you know, out of cucumbers.

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 22:04 (ten years ago) link

thanks for all that fizzles, i will always stan for ilx posts that bother to quote braudel

"Dave Barlow" is the name Lou uses on sabermetrics baseball sites (s.clover), Wednesday, 11 September 2013 22:14 (ten years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.