TS: XTC's Black Sea vs. English Settlement

XTC have a nice line in quietly furious songs/songs with bouncy melodies and angry lyrics- 'That's really Super, Supergirl', 'Wait 'til your boat goes Down', 'Minature Sun', I think they're a band for angry introverts.

their best songs tend to get really fucken angry though, c.f. complicated game, no language

I really love 'Miniature Sun', I've always liked how it goes from that elated middle eight right into that narked off final verse; it reflects its lyrical content very well.

The b-sides around EngSett are the missing side 5

Punch and Judy / Heaven is paved / and the rest..

Tissue Tigers!

Wow, this is tough. I reviewed the tracklisting and its got to be English Settlement for me. I adore every single track, even the of vocals of Leisure and Melt The Guns. It's sequenced perfectly and takes me on a tour of Swindon every time. I'm not even tired of Senses after all these years.

I read that Andy Partridge spent a lot of his childhood confined to bed due to illness. Do you think that this produces a certain kind of personality type? I think Steve Harley also spent a lot of childhood bedridden, and their records both have this almost prissy attention to detail and neatness, they both create the type of music that gets described as 'well-constructed', i think. Does this come from spending large part of your formative years in a restricted environment that you have total control over, not having to interact with other people?

A lot of XTC songs feel '3D' to me, like they construct these detailed but claustrophobic/hermetically sealed worlds/landscapes. If you are a bedridden child you must take refuge in fantasy and imagination to a large extent, so it must be an odd combination of freedom, like you can create worlds that you have total control over, but also restriction. I read a description of XTC's music somewhere that said that though a lot of it is jaunty/whimsical, there's always this sense just under the surface of something being not quite right.

"Black Sea" wins this pretty easily tho "English Settlement" is full of great things. I don't like the sequencing of "English Settlement", opening with two Moulding songs and then having NINE Andy Partridge songs in a row, I'm afraid that's too much Partridge in one sitting for me esp. as so many of the songs are him at his most long-winded and indigestible.

I don't often listen to English Settlement from front to back in one sitting but I've only ever dealt with it as a CD or digital album and usually jump back and forth between different tracks. I can see how it might be unwieldy as a vinyl double album.

I hadn't listened to it in years (and I mean, like, decades) but I listened to in one sitting and that long sequence of AP songs really began to drag

Black Sea. Still never fails to exhilarate and is also one of my all time favorite crunchy guitar records. The albums that preceded it were too squirrelly and right after it they swerved away from that stinging crunch.

Eng Sett has an absolutely killer single lp in it but yeah side 3 ewww.

gonna edit them both into a single LP, for the fuck of it, and also to further demonstrate my preference for ES:

SIDE A

runaways
ball & chain
senses working overtime
jason & the argonauts
no thugs in our house
no language in our lungs

SIDE B

towers of london
fly on the wall
leisure
english roundabout
snowman
travels in nihilon

This thread has just set me off on a massive XTC binge... thanks ILX! (and I mean that with absolutely zero sarcasm, of course)

A lot of XTC songs feel '3D' to me, like they construct these detailed but claustrophobic/hermetically sealed worlds/landscapes. If you are a bedridden child you must take refuge in fantasy and imagination to a large extent, so it must be an odd combination of freedom, like you can create worlds that you have total control over, but also restriction.

Possibly related to that thought, Andy once said that he and Colin determined that Andy was in indoor person who wrote outdoor songs, and Colin was an outdoor person who wrote indoor songs.

English Settlement, side 2 and a half..

1. Blame The Weather (3:37) Written-By – C. Moulding*
2. Tissue Tigers (The Arguers) (3:55) Written-By – A. Partridge*
3. Heaven Is Paved With Broken Glass (5:07) Written-By – Partridge*
4. Punch And Judy (2:44) Written-By – Partridge*
5. Looking For Footprints (3:28) Written-By – Partridge*

this is really close, voting english settlement i guess

like this basically boils down to '60 minutes of XTC at their peak or 40 minutes of XTC at their peak'

I'm with Mark here, English Settlement would be maybe their greatest album (or at least, it would stand up next to Skylarking) had they replaced some of the dead spots on Side 3 with those excellent B-sides, at least "Tissue Tigers" and "The World is Full of Angry Young Men"

I don't like the sequencing of "English Settlement"...

I'm sure I've opined on another XTC thread, but I've only ever owned the American English Settlement and I think the sequencing of that is excellent. That means I'm not overly familiar with "Leisure" or "Knuckle Down" on the seemingly maligned side 3. I have no problems with "Melt The Guns" and "Africa," love them both.

I thought 'Looking For Footprints' was an earlier track, it is descended from a song called Sleepyheads which, I'm guessing, is from Drums & Wires or earlier.

I'm torn on this. Just last week I rediscovered Black Sea and decided it's their most consistently great album - every track is a killer. But English Settlement is both a sentimental favorite and, for reasons that a lot of people have said above, maybe their single best album - it has the journey, the high points, the kind of perfect moment of getting a bit mature and realizing that it's happening, as you hear on songs like "All of a Sudden." I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that song yet - it's a great distillation of realizing you've grown up now, this is it, this is where you are, so what's next? I love that the album doesn't have a "concept." A bunch of English boys basically think about going to Africa and never actually get there. There are no grand schemes, just small realizations. And "Senses Working Overtime" - still one of the all-time greats.

"Knuckle Down" is one of their weakest but best-placed songs. It's nothing special but you need a breather right around there, and the chorus sticks in my head for that reason. "Fly on the Wall" is the opposite - it's a great song but I always skip it.

I seem to remember Dave Gregory saying that he thought the album needed more production, a bit more to the arrangements. It is pretty stripped-down and there's room to do more, and maybe if they'd taken it farther it would have more of that patina of "greatness," but I'm glad they didn't. For one thing I just love the album as it is, and for another, every album that came after it was a bit of a loud mess in one way or another. I don't think they ever truly got the hang of using lots of instruments.

Xpost it's the other way around, LFF was recorded for go2

I don't think they ever truly got the hang of using lots of instruments.

don't really love either of these albums all the way through tbh

Apple Venus was the one with the "realistic" synth orchestra right? That was gross.

Except for the fact that they were played by a real orchestra (and fairly amazing), yes.

Damn I have a really distinct memory of it sounding sampled. Maybe they were just miked weird. Now I feel guilty for holding it against them all thus time!

Maybe you heard "Demo Venus" or whatever it was called

The Big Express and Oranges & Lemons may sound overloaded with sound at first, but it all makes sense after a while.

Probably my two favorite XTC records. Skylarking is great too, especially the version with the perfect Mermaid Smiled rather than the over-obvious Dear God. Anyway, Black Sea wins.

I'm really split on Apple Venus, half of that is like their best album ever, but I really dislike the middle section of the album (outside of "Greenman" which is one of my top 5 XTCtunes)

My three favourites are Black Sea, Skylarking and Nonsuch... I get a lot out of every XTC album, but those three are kinda like the three that I would rescue from the fire/take to the desert island etc.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

REJOICE! \o/

Right on. It's frustrating, because Settlement without the filler (which is what "Melt the Guns" feels like) would easily be Black Sea's equal, or at the very least, a pastoral angle on Black Sea's rawk.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the gripping dynamic of this particular unit of particularly agitated musicians was gone forever.

Everyone wins!

Sorry I missed this one, but I'd go with Black Sea, if only as it's a bit more clangy.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again.

I'd argue that the solo on Books Are Burning is one of the great classic rock solos, but maybe.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again.

Nonsense...."No Thugs in Our House" (English Settlement), "Wake Up" (Big Express), "Across This Anthead" (Oranges & Lemons)

AntHEAP

I love "Wake Up," but those other two (along with everything on Oranges & Lemons) always fell flat for me.

Really? "No Thugs.."? I love that goddamn song.

yeah me too tbh

I wouldn't describe 'Across This Antheap' as "rocking", either.

"Earn Enough for Us" too.

Plus the Dukes, obv

you guys are suggesting some weird pretty non-rock-y stuff imho. I don't think Tarfumes is entirely wrong that they ditched the aesthetic of Black Sea for the most part - the slashing guitars, the stuttering rhythms, the frenetic energy, etc. they didn't really go there again. some of the stuff on Big Express maybe comes closest.

Black Sea is the way that it is because that particular line-up of the band (Partridge/Gregory/Moulding/Chambers) had such an undeniable chemistry as a unit and were playing together a lot as a live band, so you get an energy and urgency on Black Sea that they couldn't replicate on their post-Settlement studio records, no matter how good the drummers they used on those recordings were/are. That, and Partridge seemed to want to move away from that particular approach to recording/style of music on the records starting with Settlement.

as opposed to XTC's later era where their music sounded out of step with nearly everything on the radio - Skylarking sure as hell doesn't sound like a pop record from 1986

Thinking about my criticism of "Leisure" etc.:

On certain songs on their first three albums, they got aggressive, unmelodic and rhythmically disjunctive (as well as singing in silly voices), there was enough power in the music to put it over. When they try to do pursue that same mode on Black Sea or English Settlement, there's been a loss of energy and an increase in production gloss, and those songs are irritating instead of bracing. They were better off at that point in their career in going for Beatles instead of Beefheart.

― Halfway there but for you, Monday, February 14, 2022 6:33 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is a good point, definitely a big part of the problem with Leisure for me is that sort of waddling gait it has, it just sounds so bumptious.

The Sparks comparison is interesting – obv. both bands were produced by Todd Rundgren.

relistening to English Settlement now and noticing some things

1) there are a lot of awesome bass lines on this thing
2) Partridge is a total weirdo, I can see why he puts people off. he doesn't really have the voice to do all those sing-songy bits and his phrasing is so bizarre sometimes. he does the Zappa thing a bunch where he writes these rapid melodies and tries to sing every note of them
3) regardless, dude spins some great tunes. Yacht Dance is so damn beautiful. as is All of the Sudden. he's a brilliant lyricist...sometimes
4) No Thugs riff is immense
5) this album sounds dated in a way I never really noticed before. I think Hugh Padgham has a pretty signature style. where he puts the reverb and such.
6) album's theme seems to be anti-progress, sorta like Village Green Preservation Society. feel like Andy saw the world hurtling towards something bad and felt like we'd gone too far. well, can't imagine you'd like how things are now buddy
7) Leisure is the worst track I've always felt, but lately it kinda wins me over until the sax part...what the fuck!!!! Dont do that!!
8) English Roundabout = one of Colin's best tracks? his singing on it is incredible.
9) Fly on the Wall is almost like a throwback to their first two albums. were they trying to replicate Barry's sound or something?
10) bridge on Senses is amazing: "And birds might fall from black skies/And bullies might give you black eyes/And buses might skid on black ice"...brilliant
11) also really love that "we will skid across the surface of the ocean as though we're really seabirds" line on Yacht Dance
12) can't think of anything else

I think it's "wheeling seabirds," isn't it?

1) there are a lot of awesome bass lines on this thing

OTM

Terry Chambers is a hero and i think people who came to xtc in the post TC era don't really understand how massive the guy's sound was in the context of the time. he was also a prog fan and was totally blown away at learning the Bill Bruford had name checked him as a drummer to listen to i guess in the early 80s

TB: I think every drummer is a soup of all their influences -- I mean, that's the whole point, you put all that stuff in, mix it up, and you come up with something that tastes a little different. But you can still taste all the ingredients. I mean, it was good for me to play along with you, to hear those holes and the discipline, because I grew up listening to prog drummers -- Bill Bruford, Carl Palmer, early Phil Collins...

TC: Yeah. In the end, I stopped listening to them. I thought, "Well, I'm never going to be this fucking good, so I'm just going to go me own way now." "I've learned all I can learn off of these guys," I could just never kind of catch up with them, because every time I'd think, "Well, I'm sort of getting on top of this," they'd bring another album out and take it to a new level. So I could never win!

TB: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Well, if it's any consolation, I remember seeing an interview with Bruford back in 1980 -- it was right when King Crimson had gotten back together and put out Discipline, and they had asked him for the five albums he was listening to at the time. One of them was Drums and Wires.

TC: You're kidding.

TB: Nope.

TC: Well mate, that really is a jug handle, if I may use such a term! I mean, that's unbelievable!

TB: Yeah, so, a bit of a turnaround there, huh?

TC: Well, I mean ... I'm not even worthy to talk of the man! The man is a living god! I mean, if he was a Greek, he would be a god for sure!

Awww

Now I'm obsessing over the phrase 'that really is a jug handle', I wonder what it means exactly?

It was a different time; the masses still had an occasional ear for arty sui generis pop. My go-to example is that Laurie Anderson made it to no. 2 in the British charts in 1981.

That is the big one... but funny then how XTC had so few proper hits. Towers Of London at the very least should have been done better.

When they were getting in the charts and on the radio in the UK I was between 7-10 years old.

At the age of 15 I bought a second-hand copy of Waxworks and soon realised that I knew all the songs from 'Life Begins...' onwards - and later found out that I knew 'Ten Feet Tall' very well but didn't know it was XTC -

So, hits or otherwise, they definitely penetrated our little household from casual kitchen-radio listening at the time.

"Making Plans For Nigel" was a hit, as was "Sgt. Rock". "Life Begins At the Hop" wasn't but they got on Top of the Pops!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHTMlOtiLSo

a cool thing about the bridge on “senses” is that it secretly changes the key, and then when the pre-chorus comes back it’s a half step higher. cool effect, costello’s “oliver’s army” does a similar thing

My copy of ES (a beige cassette c. 1985 purchased at Rockhead’s in downtown St. Paul) had the aforementioned US tracklisting except with “Yacht Dance” replacing “It’s Nearly Africa”, resulting in an almost perfect album IMO. The only spare track I’d eagerly restore would be “Fly On The Wall”.

1. "Runaways"
2. "Ball and Chain"
3. "Senses Working Overtime"
4. "Jason and the Argonauts"
5. "Snowman"

1. "Melt the Guns"
2. "No Thugs in Our House"
3. "Yacht Dance"
4. "English Roundabout"
5. "All of a Sudden (It's Too Late)"

Wow, weird. That's on wiki: Some versions of the following track listing replace "It's Nearly Africa" with "Yacht Dance", resulting in a nearly identical runtime. Wonder what the reasoning for that was?

Stray thoughts:

- Is "Yacht Dance" XTC's version of acoustic Jethro Tull?
- I always liked Christgau's suggestion that "English Roundabout" is about the convoluted language, not just U.K. traffic.
- "All of a Sudden" sounds like cheery later McCartney mixed with the melancholy world-view of "Eleanor Rigby" or "For No One".

Too quirky, too brainy, too awkward, and just not good-looking enough (sorry, lads). There’s no louche legend to attach to them, no cool image; it’s all about the music, which is most definitely “music for music nerds.”

I've been thinking about this and it's definitely otm. in fact this is what deterred me from getting into the band in the first place. I remember seeing their CDs at the library and researching them online and they just came off so boring. the album covers, their photoshoots in pilgrim outfits, song titles like "Wrapped in Grey". everyone I know who's into them is a huge music dork. in that sense maybe they are more like They Might be Giants? yes, smart, profound, brilliant, all that...but they write music for music's sake and the people behind it are just sorta...normal dudes

moulding seems like a normal guy, idk if partridge fits by any stretch of the definition

Partridge is a normal dude in the sense that he’s a strong example of a “type” everybody knows: the abrasive know-it-all nerd.

Andy was interviewed a few years back for a podcast about Judee Sill. Her song "The Kiss" literally brought him to tears.

i thought it was interesting, watching the footage of the band's last day before they abruptly stopped playing live, that partridge seems together and with it, throughout. a little nervous and uptight but i certainly can understand that, and kind of a dick sometimes to people and a bit self-important, but also we don't see the months and years of touring and PR bullshit. anyway, he seemed perfectly fine, to me. and then, even the set itself when it happens, the songs leading up to it, the very song itself, even (i forget which one) -- to me i'm watching, thinking "when is the show where he walks off?", and then suddenly, he does.

just not at all the kind of "singer leaves set halfway through" kind of thing you're used to, you know?! very XTC in that way, i think. i think there's another xtc thread where every few years, for the last 15, i pop in and state my interest in getting into xtc but also that i've been unable to, or something. still true to this day, although every time i come back it's more familiar and i also hear a bunch of new things i didn't notice a few years earlier. that seems like an outstanding and uncommon quality in a pop band

yeah if you were in the crowd you'd think "wow, guess he had to piss huh?" its weird cuz you listen to those Black Sea era recordings and he was a total showman. however I have taken valium one time and a thought I had is "yes going from this world to that world must be pretty jarring". that said as the Quietus article mentions the bigger story is the insane pressure that was put on those bands back in the day. like I remember an article about TMBG where one of the Johns mentions 1990 as the band's most unhappy period because they spent basically every waking hour on the road or giving interviews getting asked the same 3 questions over and over. I'm surprised more of these folks didn't lose their marbles.