TS: XTC's Black Sea vs. English Settlement

I don't like the sequencing of "English Settlement"...

I'm sure I've opined on another XTC thread, but I've only ever owned the American English Settlement and I think the sequencing of that is excellent. That means I'm not overly familiar with "Leisure" or "Knuckle Down" on the seemingly maligned side 3. I have no problems with "Melt The Guns" and "Africa," love them both.

I thought 'Looking For Footprints' was an earlier track, it is descended from a song called Sleepyheads which, I'm guessing, is from Drums & Wires or earlier.

I'm torn on this. Just last week I rediscovered Black Sea and decided it's their most consistently great album - every track is a killer. But English Settlement is both a sentimental favorite and, for reasons that a lot of people have said above, maybe their single best album - it has the journey, the high points, the kind of perfect moment of getting a bit mature and realizing that it's happening, as you hear on songs like "All of a Sudden." I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that song yet - it's a great distillation of realizing you've grown up now, this is it, this is where you are, so what's next? I love that the album doesn't have a "concept." A bunch of English boys basically think about going to Africa and never actually get there. There are no grand schemes, just small realizations. And "Senses Working Overtime" - still one of the all-time greats.

"Knuckle Down" is one of their weakest but best-placed songs. It's nothing special but you need a breather right around there, and the chorus sticks in my head for that reason. "Fly on the Wall" is the opposite - it's a great song but I always skip it.

I seem to remember Dave Gregory saying that he thought the album needed more production, a bit more to the arrangements. It is pretty stripped-down and there's room to do more, and maybe if they'd taken it farther it would have more of that patina of "greatness," but I'm glad they didn't. For one thing I just love the album as it is, and for another, every album that came after it was a bit of a loud mess in one way or another. I don't think they ever truly got the hang of using lots of instruments.

Xpost it's the other way around, LFF was recorded for go2

I don't think they ever truly got the hang of using lots of instruments.

don't really love either of these albums all the way through tbh

Apple Venus was the one with the "realistic" synth orchestra right? That was gross.

Except for the fact that they were played by a real orchestra (and fairly amazing), yes.

Damn I have a really distinct memory of it sounding sampled. Maybe they were just miked weird. Now I feel guilty for holding it against them all thus time!

Maybe you heard "Demo Venus" or whatever it was called

The Big Express and Oranges & Lemons may sound overloaded with sound at first, but it all makes sense after a while.

Probably my two favorite XTC records. Skylarking is great too, especially the version with the perfect Mermaid Smiled rather than the over-obvious Dear God. Anyway, Black Sea wins.

I'm really split on Apple Venus, half of that is like their best album ever, but I really dislike the middle section of the album (outside of "Greenman" which is one of my top 5 XTCtunes)

My three favourites are Black Sea, Skylarking and Nonsuch... I get a lot out of every XTC album, but those three are kinda like the three that I would rescue from the fire/take to the desert island etc.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

REJOICE! \o/

Right on. It's frustrating, because Settlement without the filler (which is what "Melt the Guns" feels like) would easily be Black Sea's equal, or at the very least, a pastoral angle on Black Sea's rawk.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the gripping dynamic of this particular unit of particularly agitated musicians was gone forever.

Everyone wins!

Sorry I missed this one, but I'd go with Black Sea, if only as it's a bit more clangy.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again.

I'd argue that the solo on Books Are Burning is one of the great classic rock solos, but maybe.

But after Black Sea, they never really rocked again.

Nonsense...."No Thugs in Our House" (English Settlement), "Wake Up" (Big Express), "Across This Anthead" (Oranges & Lemons)

AntHEAP

I love "Wake Up," but those other two (along with everything on Oranges & Lemons) always fell flat for me.

Really? "No Thugs.."? I love that goddamn song.

yeah me too tbh

I wouldn't describe 'Across This Antheap' as "rocking", either.

"Earn Enough for Us" too.

Plus the Dukes, obv

you guys are suggesting some weird pretty non-rock-y stuff imho. I don't think Tarfumes is entirely wrong that they ditched the aesthetic of Black Sea for the most part - the slashing guitars, the stuttering rhythms, the frenetic energy, etc. they didn't really go there again. some of the stuff on Big Express maybe comes closest.

Black Sea is the way that it is because that particular line-up of the band (Partridge/Gregory/Moulding/Chambers) had such an undeniable chemistry as a unit and were playing together a lot as a live band, so you get an energy and urgency on Black Sea that they couldn't replicate on their post-Settlement studio records, no matter how good the drummers they used on those recordings were/are. That, and Partridge seemed to want to move away from that particular approach to recording/style of music on the records starting with Settlement.

yup to all that

only "No Thugs" comes close to rocking out as hard - "Wake Up" feels a little more stitched and calculated than anything on Black Sea. obviously not really a knock on later XTC but they definitely lost the "live" sound pretty suddenly afterwards.

Yeah, definitely agree regarding 'Wake Up'... there's a rigidity in the way that the track has been recorded that contrasts with the live band feel on Black Sea. Not to knock the track, because I like it a lot, but you can definitely tell it was a studio creation rather than the result of a band playing together.

I wouldn't describe 'Across This Antheap' as "rocking", either.

Compared to, say, anything on albums including and after Nonesuch it does.

I mean, it ain't Motorhead, but there's a bit of edge there.

I remember being disappointed the first time I heard Wasp Star because it seemed like they were trying to do a stripped down, live band feel again, only with some kinda stodgy, un-rocking songs.

Had Dave Gregory split by that point?

I pretty much abandoned ship after Nonesuch.

Yeah, I think he left when they were partway through preparing Apple Venus vol 1, he'd already done some arrangements for it, and didn't contribute at all to Wasp Star IIRC. Possibly why it sounds relatively sloppy by XTC standards.

Compared to, say, anything on albums including and after Nonesuch it does.

― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:08 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'd agree with that, but we're not comparing it with what came after Nonsuch!

sloppy?! not really a term I associate with this band. like, ever.

Well like I say relatively sloppy, by their standards. But maybe 'sloppy' isn't the right word, i don't know.

Like Frogbs said, after English Settlement they didn't have that live band sound anymore, but all the albums had this lush, glossy, ultra-precise 80s production. And then Wasp Star didn't really have the live band feel or the glossy production?

Here's what David Gregory played on Apple Venus...

Easter Theatre: mellotron, acoustic guitar, keyboard programming
Frivolous Tonight: piano, synths, Mellotron, backing vocals
Greenman: keyboard programming, synth
Your Dictionary: piano, cello charts
I Can't Own Her: piano, synths
Harvest Festival: piano
Fruit Nut: synths, acoustic & electric guitars, organ, mellotron

Partridge did quite a fair bit of 'string arranging' on Apple Venus (as can he heard on his original demos for the album).

Gregory wasn't involved in recording Wasp Star.

Ah, I didn't realise he'd played that much on Apple Venus, I'd thought he left not long after they started recording it, and sort of already had one foot out of the door for quite a while before that. I think I remember in one of the books about the band Gregory talking about hearing 'Playground' for the first time and cringing, he didn't like the arrangement or recording and felt that the band was suffering for his absence? I think that was gist of what he said, anyway.

Black Sea is the way that it is because that particular line-up of the band (Partridge/Gregory/Moulding/Chambers) had such an undeniable chemistry as a unit and were playing together a lot as a live band, so you get an energy and urgency on Black Sea that they couldn't replicate on their post-Settlement studio records, no matter how good the drummers they used on those recordings were/are. That, and Partridge seemed to want to move away from that particular approach to recording/style of music on the records starting with Settlement.

― Dog Man Star took a suck on a pill... (Turrican), Tuesday, August 27, 2013 5:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is pretty much what I was getting at.

And it's not that I don't like any post-Black Sea XTC, and some of my favorite XTC is their least rocking ("Grass," for one). But the agitated dynamic of those musicians in that format was gone. What replaced it was sometimes better, sometimes not.

Yup, it would definitely have been interesting to see how Chambers would have handled the Apple Venus material!

They did crank it up a few times after Black Sea (add to the list "Funk Pop a Roll," "Reign of Blows," "Garden of Earthly Delights," "Merely a Man," "Crocodile"), but never for more than a song or two per album, and none of it has the abandon of Black Sea.

And I'm convinced that the reason Wasp Star sounds so unfinished is the absence of Dave Gregory.

I can appreciate the arguments ppl are making in favor on BS, but ES is just on a totally different level for me. I really like all the songs people complain about in this thread, and LOVE the rest. Something about the production really works for me, it shimmers timelessly whereas Black Sea just rocks a la 1980 wiry postpunk. IMO.

Andy was interviewed a few years back for a podcast about Judee Sill. Her song "The Kiss" literally brought him to tears.

i thought it was interesting, watching the footage of the band's last day before they abruptly stopped playing live, that partridge seems together and with it, throughout. a little nervous and uptight but i certainly can understand that, and kind of a dick sometimes to people and a bit self-important, but also we don't see the months and years of touring and PR bullshit. anyway, he seemed perfectly fine, to me. and then, even the set itself when it happens, the songs leading up to it, the very song itself, even (i forget which one) -- to me i'm watching, thinking "when is the show where he walks off?", and then suddenly, he does.

just not at all the kind of "singer leaves set halfway through" kind of thing you're used to, you know?! very XTC in that way, i think. i think there's another xtc thread where every few years, for the last 15, i pop in and state my interest in getting into xtc but also that i've been unable to, or something. still true to this day, although every time i come back it's more familiar and i also hear a bunch of new things i didn't notice a few years earlier. that seems like an outstanding and uncommon quality in a pop band

yeah if you were in the crowd you'd think "wow, guess he had to piss huh?" its weird cuz you listen to those Black Sea era recordings and he was a total showman. however I have taken valium one time and a thought I had is "yes going from this world to that world must be pretty jarring". that said as the Quietus article mentions the bigger story is the insane pressure that was put on those bands back in the day. like I remember an article about TMBG where one of the Johns mentions 1990 as the band's most unhappy period because they spent basically every waking hour on the road or giving interviews getting asked the same 3 questions over and over. I'm surprised more of these folks didn't lose their marbles.