Appropriation = Good!

Exactly. This is why Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley are forgotten today, while we're all still listening to Pat Boone and Fabian.

Chuck and Bo though had to hustle for gigs most of their lives and endured a lot civil rights -wise, but I'm hoping you know that

I have never heard of Pat Boone, nor K. Michelle before this week, so I don't feel qualified to discuss either. (I do know Little Richard, however.) Maybe I can digress for a second to talk about two musical forms that I'm very familiar with and how they might relate to the discussion of appropriation? (They're kinda pet topics.)

1. Historical development of klezmer music happened simultaneously w/ development of Romani lăutari musicians. Both Jewish + Romani communities were outside the broader culture, and within their particular groups musicians were even more outsiders. Klezmer + lăutari musicians would travel together - play each others celebratory events, etc, and that mix of cultures turned out to be incredibly productive. This is a kind of ideal cross-appropriation where two groups develop along parallel lines with constant interaction + exchange. I can see how this might be viewed as different from white American culture appropriating black music, but I suspect (and believe) that this klezmer/lăutari model is paradigmatic for how music travels in general. Influence is never one direction and disparate communities have a lot to give each other.

2. This is literal appropriation - Chassidic niggunim have some original compositions, but many of the compositions came from popular songs at the time (17th, 18th, 19th centuries). Some of them are bar songs - literally songs that Polish neighbors sang in their bars. Sometimes with the lyrics intact, sometimes w/ new lyrics, and sometimes w/out lyrics at all. One really famous entry into this genre is a reappropriation of la marseillase, which is now a niggun. Again, this might be different bc it's a very niche culture appropriating from a broader, popular culture, but again, it's an example of sounds + music being lifted pretty much wholesale from one community and having a huge impact the community that borrows it. When I wrote about niggunim I would never try to contextualize this as some kind of crime against French nationalism or Polish bar drinking culture. I'd note that this is a place where Chassidic music culture was impacted + changed by these other cultures. Similarly, isn't that the far more empowering (and sensible) way of characterizing even white American appropriation of black music?

* Also, I should note that I really don't care about the Billboard charts. I don't care which musical artists get acknowledged by the charts and which ones do not. I know not everyone on ilx agrees with that but I just can't get worked up about Billboard changing their criteria for measuring plays, even if it pushes black artists off the charts. I never look at the charts, I don't think they have much of interest to say (now, or even 10 years ago), and I really don't care about which musicians are gaining fame + fortune in the broader popular culture. This might be myopic of me, but K. Michelle not getting enough attention from radio stations is never going to impress me. I'd be open to hearing an argument about why pop music charts matter (and I mean really matter - not matter as some emblematic/symbolic reflection of culture in general), but I'm very, very skeptical.

Chuck and Bo though had to hustle for gigs most of their lives and endured a lot civil rights -wise, but I'm hoping you know that

Yes.

I really don't care about the Billboard charts. I don't care which musical artists get acknowledged by the charts and which ones do not. I know not everyone on ilx agrees with that but I just can't get worked up about Billboard changing their criteria for measuring plays, even if it pushes black artists off the charts. I never look at the charts, I don't think they have much of interest to say (now, or even 10 years ago), and I really don't care about which musicians are gaining fame + fortune in the broader popular culture. This might be myopic of me, but K. Michelle not getting enough attention from radio stations is never going to impress me. I'd be open to hearing an argument about why pop music charts matter (and I mean really matter - not matter as some emblematic/symbolic reflection of culture in general), but I'm very, very skeptical.

Agreed. Temporary/current success is no sign of anything, in my eyes. Especially not in the modern era, where music from the past exists in digital simultaneity with brand-new stuff, and is always available for discovery by people who are interested in the search. And besides, people mythologize the pop charts as though they have something to say about the culture, when a lot of the canonical artists of past decades were regularly beaten on the charts of their time by cheesy shit nobody would listen to now without a gun to their head.

hmm, good point, i guess all pop music is irrelevant because some of it now sounds cheezy and people can listen to old music if they want... huh, never thought about it like that

I'd be open to hearing an argument about why pop music charts matter (and I mean really matter - not matter as some emblematic/symbolic reflection of culture in general), but I'm very, very skeptical.

― Mordy , Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:34 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what a tantalizing proposition

am I really that fucking old that we've now crossed into a generation of parents who have no idea who Pat Boone is?

i'm 28, the only context that i've heard of pat boone is: i took a 'rock history' class in community college in which there was some blurb in a textbook about how white rockers like pat boone and elvis became more famous and wealthy than the black people whose music they performed

so... yes

I've heard of Elvis.

pat boone was ozzy's neighbor who moved and those frat guys moved into his house, and sharon got mad at them and wished their good neighbor pat boone still lived there.

And flopson, while I respect your desire to be included in this obviously very interesting conversation maybe save the snarky sniping for one of multitude of asinine other threads you frequent?

I'm pretty sure you haven't exhausted the Lorde well yet. Keep plumbing!

i think as a pretty smart guy who has been posting to & reading ilm for howevermany years saying "i've never seen anyone justify pop music's cultural importance and i'm very skeptical that it's possible but i'm willing to hear the arguments now" is pretty facetious. why not engage with arguments that it is important that have already been made? why dismiss "emblematic/symbolic reflection of culture in general"? despite your serious guy earnestly posing a question tone it just seems like you are not arguing in good faith

I didn't say that I've never seen anyone justify pop music's cultural importance. I said that I haven't seen a case specifically for Billboard charts importance. Those are obviously very different things.

Like you do understand that Billboard changing their model for ranking plays was changed by a few ppl who run the magazine/organization and not by some massive democratic participation demanding that black ppl become underrepresented? Or do I totally misunderstand how that change came about?

nothing in the world is done by massive democratic participation bro

And re: emblematic/symbolic meanings of individual institutional decisions - those things are interpretive models and easily abused. Anything can mean anything. Take it from a guy who wrote about how cookie monster vocals are about queering masculine performative tropes.

flopson, as a 'pretty smart guy' do you have anything to contribute here?

woah, when i called u a pretty smart guy i didn't put it in scarequotes

neways i do think there is some kind of feedback from the charts back into radioplay, isn't that what top 40 charts are based off of?

And youtube views apparently. In 2013 it seems weird to be arguing about the relevance of radio stations + billboard charts. Haven't there already been a million articles about the end of the monoculture, the dwindling singles/radio market, etc? Focusing on these increasingly irrelevant modes of music listening as being telling cultural indicators seems like a step backwards from that realization.

And sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were describing yourself as a pretty smart guy.

(They weren't supposed to be scare quotes, they were direct quotes.)

I feel less icky about things that take cosmetic features from other things that also strive for chart dominance. The playing field isn't level, but at least both parties have consented to playing the same filthy game.

Appropriators gotta appropriate.

http://aleheads.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/61ddn-ueiel-_sl500_aa300_.jpg

BLS employment and fed FRED data is done by "a few ppl who run the magazine/organization and not by some massive democratic participation" too. plenty of people say that's a rigged game, too, which is a bit more nuts

i mean, there aren't many data points available when it comes to what people are buying and listening to en masse; billboard is one of them. the fact that it's another kapitalist enterprise is just part of the game. it's not weird to still talk about it in 2013; though less powerful the billboard organization is still powerful! kind of like the US.

I think it's important to note that not only is Billboard less powerful than ever, but that we know what changed in their algorithm that created these new results. They started counting youtube streams.

Also, slightly ot, but I find the current spate of chart analysis to be one of the worst features of contemporary music criticism. It's engaging w/ the most visible and most easily approached musical objects. It seems like the kind of thing that anyone can have an opinion about - it requires no research, insight or expertise. And on ilx at least it has led to a trend where the vast majority of conversation about music in 2013 is about Lorde, Miley Cyrus, Lily Allen, etc. Can we really only talk in this one register? Why did two long paragraphs about klezmer + chassidic niggunim get totally ignored and a throwaway line about Billboard being unimportant get focused on? It's some kind of communal failing - ilm is only as good as the music discussed, and right now we're pretty much as good as Miley Cyrus ime. Some potential and a lot of spectacle.

I don't remember where I read this critique - probably in a few places - but this continued emphasis on cultural exploitation isn't good for anyone. It becomes the prism through which we view all music from any culture. It's either exploiting or being exploited. Appropriating or being appropriated. These things should have range that goes beyond this one critique.

I think it has less to do with the charts being inherently important as an institution than it does with the idea that, however imperfect they were, they were one of the few forums in American public life that afforded a measure of parity between different racial groups. Irrespective of the intention behind the rule change, a situation that pushes black performers to the sidelines and elevates white ones is always going to be interpreted as politically loaded.

I known Pat Boone's name for years from a joke I cant remember but dont know his music. I only found out what Billboard was a couple of months ago (but I'm in UK).

I'm not sure what to make of all the discussion of Miley Cyrus, but it does annoy the hell out of me that the controversy has made her the cultural event of the year. I like to think all that discussion that I dont have time or interest to read is something constructive that prevents that kind of stuff from getting so much attention again; but I often would rather people just ignored the controversy entirely and discussed the music that really deserves ears (having said that, for all I know about her, maybe her music is good). I'm really tired of controversial pop culture that the commentators dont even like is taking up all the blog and forum space when there is so much neglected life changing goodies out there waiting to be talked up.

I think that's a very fair critique of ILX where the majority of those threads are denouncing the artist and then dismissing them on aesthetic grounds. At least with the Varg/Wagner argument people feel passionately about the music being discussed.

there's too much assumption that the allegedly appropriated music sounds the same or is scientifically a watered down version of that which it appropriates, on this thread. you can't prove why one thing is more popular than another, it's not like music goes on a simply visible ladder of the real shit > ripoff > less authentic > miley cyrus. or sales increase as you move along some such continuum.

i mean just throwing the idea out there that how music sounds may play a role in its success, even to those who lack our superior intelligence.

I think the sounds are important to an artist being loved about the same amount that a sports team ability to win does for their fandom

But having said all that, this is one of the few places on the internet you can have extensive discussions about loads of obscure music that arent covered by any other forum/community. There might be better forums for metal, world music and classical but is there anywhere else I can talk about Susumu Hirasawa? Maybe there is.

Are there better forums for world music? Links please if you know of any.

I think the sounds are important to an artist being loved about the same amount that a sports team ability to win does for their fandom

p cynical view of pop music.

i mean just throwing the idea out there that how music sounds may play a role in its success, even to those who lack our superior intelligence.

It plays a role, sure; which music gets presented to people (the 99% who don't make that much effort to seek out new music) plays a larger role imo.

Why did two long paragraphs about klezmer + chassidic niggunim get totally ignored and a throwaway line about Billboard being unimportant get focused on?

I thought it was interesting fwiw!

I think the sounds are important to an artist being loved about the same amount that a sports team ability to win does for their fandom

p cynical view of pop music.

― Legitimate space tale (LocalGarda)

not cynical enough imo, sounds far less important than that

Mordy says "Are there better forums for world music? Links please if you know of any."

Sorry I dont know any, I just assumed there must be world music forums.

There are various forums for all kinds of non-"Western" music--but we're looking for a better one in English, and hmmm, not sure of one. Alas, a West African one I used to read whose contributors were mainly Congolese folks living in Belgium, France and the US, seems to be gone now. Does that other ilx-like forum Dissensus still exist? They used to discuss international sounds.

Regarding Klezmer and Roma music and Mordy saying Similarly, isn't that the far more empowering (and sensible) way of characterizing even white American appropriation of black music?

Also, Mordy, I think there is plenty of discussion on ilx music threads that goes being who is being exploited.

No, I do not think so, for a myriad of reasons having to do with race, politics, economy , etc. Also, Mordy and uh, is that Unperson (real name starts with a P) , its ok for you two to not personally care about Billboard charts but they are important as a tool and placement on such charts, even their genre ones, can help musicians sell music and get gigs, and culturally can bring attention to music as well. Also I second ShariVari's thoughts upthread on this.

Oops, with my cutting and pasting.

This should have gone at the end and said: Also, Mordy, I think there is plenty of discussion on ilx music threads that covers more than who is being exploited

There is some but it seems like those are the hot topics that get the most replies / conversation. Certainly besides me and you the World Music is pretty unpopulated, which is a constant disappointment :/

I appreciate World Music a lot, fwiw. I have nothing to contribute, but it's an excellent guide.

When we change it to "Outernational" next year, the postings will be flying. :) I think its human nature that the hot topics get more attention than the discussions of Bassekou Kouyate's latest album or K. Michelle's.

Do any of the outernational non-Brit/non-American/non-European etc threads get lots of postings? The Afro-Latin one does not; the Arab music not otherwise classified does not. I don't go on the K-pop thread much, so I don't know. Same with Japanese pop ones and South Asian ones.

People are just too anxious about discussing African music - they're afraid they might accidentally appropriate something.

Ha ha. I was reading a DC blogger grumbling that most folks involved in the non-profit and governmental etc community in DC do not go out and dance to programmed beat Nigerian and South African dance music in the few clubs in DC that play such sounds. The blogger says that such folks (many of 'em white, former Peace Corps folks), if they listen to music at all, only listen to what he snears at as old-people African music -- made with guitars and such from people in Mali.

xposts
the dancehall one sure doesn't!

you're joking, but actually I do think that for people who are aware of these issues, whether or not they're valid, there's a wariness around discussing African music in a way that doesn't make you sound ignorant...and I am ignorant of huge amounts of African culture.

I feel bad that everytime I look at the dancehall thread I have nothing to contribute and say--but I often enjoy the youtubes posted. Its hard to keep up with everything and to try to grasp an understanding of the underlying cultures that the music comes from.

ha, no worries, a few people have made it clear that they bookmark it and it's not like I often have anything incisive to say. I do wish some of the pros who follow the genre would post, but we all have different posting cycles