Appropriation = Good!

And sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were describing yourself as a pretty smart guy.

(They weren't supposed to be scare quotes, they were direct quotes.)

I feel less icky about things that take cosmetic features from other things that also strive for chart dominance. The playing field isn't level, but at least both parties have consented to playing the same filthy game.

Appropriators gotta appropriate.

http://aleheads.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/61ddn-ueiel-_sl500_aa300_.jpg

BLS employment and fed FRED data is done by "a few ppl who run the magazine/organization and not by some massive democratic participation" too. plenty of people say that's a rigged game, too, which is a bit more nuts

i mean, there aren't many data points available when it comes to what people are buying and listening to en masse; billboard is one of them. the fact that it's another kapitalist enterprise is just part of the game. it's not weird to still talk about it in 2013; though less powerful the billboard organization is still powerful! kind of like the US.

I think it's important to note that not only is Billboard less powerful than ever, but that we know what changed in their algorithm that created these new results. They started counting youtube streams.

Also, slightly ot, but I find the current spate of chart analysis to be one of the worst features of contemporary music criticism. It's engaging w/ the most visible and most easily approached musical objects. It seems like the kind of thing that anyone can have an opinion about - it requires no research, insight or expertise. And on ilx at least it has led to a trend where the vast majority of conversation about music in 2013 is about Lorde, Miley Cyrus, Lily Allen, etc. Can we really only talk in this one register? Why did two long paragraphs about klezmer + chassidic niggunim get totally ignored and a throwaway line about Billboard being unimportant get focused on? It's some kind of communal failing - ilm is only as good as the music discussed, and right now we're pretty much as good as Miley Cyrus ime. Some potential and a lot of spectacle.

I don't remember where I read this critique - probably in a few places - but this continued emphasis on cultural exploitation isn't good for anyone. It becomes the prism through which we view all music from any culture. It's either exploiting or being exploited. Appropriating or being appropriated. These things should have range that goes beyond this one critique.

I think it has less to do with the charts being inherently important as an institution than it does with the idea that, however imperfect they were, they were one of the few forums in American public life that afforded a measure of parity between different racial groups. Irrespective of the intention behind the rule change, a situation that pushes black performers to the sidelines and elevates white ones is always going to be interpreted as politically loaded.

I known Pat Boone's name for years from a joke I cant remember but dont know his music. I only found out what Billboard was a couple of months ago (but I'm in UK).

I'm not sure what to make of all the discussion of Miley Cyrus, but it does annoy the hell out of me that the controversy has made her the cultural event of the year. I like to think all that discussion that I dont have time or interest to read is something constructive that prevents that kind of stuff from getting so much attention again; but I often would rather people just ignored the controversy entirely and discussed the music that really deserves ears (having said that, for all I know about her, maybe her music is good). I'm really tired of controversial pop culture that the commentators dont even like is taking up all the blog and forum space when there is so much neglected life changing goodies out there waiting to be talked up.

I think that's a very fair critique of ILX where the majority of those threads are denouncing the artist and then dismissing them on aesthetic grounds. At least with the Varg/Wagner argument people feel passionately about the music being discussed.

there's too much assumption that the allegedly appropriated music sounds the same or is scientifically a watered down version of that which it appropriates, on this thread. you can't prove why one thing is more popular than another, it's not like music goes on a simply visible ladder of the real shit > ripoff > less authentic > miley cyrus. or sales increase as you move along some such continuum.

i mean just throwing the idea out there that how music sounds may play a role in its success, even to those who lack our superior intelligence.

I think the sounds are important to an artist being loved about the same amount that a sports team ability to win does for their fandom

But having said all that, this is one of the few places on the internet you can have extensive discussions about loads of obscure music that arent covered by any other forum/community. There might be better forums for metal, world music and classical but is there anywhere else I can talk about Susumu Hirasawa? Maybe there is.

Are there better forums for world music? Links please if you know of any.

I think the sounds are important to an artist being loved about the same amount that a sports team ability to win does for their fandom

p cynical view of pop music.

i mean just throwing the idea out there that how music sounds may play a role in its success, even to those who lack our superior intelligence.

It plays a role, sure; which music gets presented to people (the 99% who don't make that much effort to seek out new music) plays a larger role imo.

Why did two long paragraphs about klezmer + chassidic niggunim get totally ignored and a throwaway line about Billboard being unimportant get focused on?

I thought it was interesting fwiw!

I think the sounds are important to an artist being loved about the same amount that a sports team ability to win does for their fandom

p cynical view of pop music.

― Legitimate space tale (LocalGarda)

not cynical enough imo, sounds far less important than that

Mordy says "Are there better forums for world music? Links please if you know of any."

Sorry I dont know any, I just assumed there must be world music forums.

There are various forums for all kinds of non-"Western" music--but we're looking for a better one in English, and hmmm, not sure of one. Alas, a West African one I used to read whose contributors were mainly Congolese folks living in Belgium, France and the US, seems to be gone now. Does that other ilx-like forum Dissensus still exist? They used to discuss international sounds.

Regarding Klezmer and Roma music and Mordy saying Similarly, isn't that the far more empowering (and sensible) way of characterizing even white American appropriation of black music?

Also, Mordy, I think there is plenty of discussion on ilx music threads that goes being who is being exploited.

No, I do not think so, for a myriad of reasons having to do with race, politics, economy , etc. Also, Mordy and uh, is that Unperson (real name starts with a P) , its ok for you two to not personally care about Billboard charts but they are important as a tool and placement on such charts, even their genre ones, can help musicians sell music and get gigs, and culturally can bring attention to music as well. Also I second ShariVari's thoughts upthread on this.

Oops, with my cutting and pasting.

This should have gone at the end and said: Also, Mordy, I think there is plenty of discussion on ilx music threads that covers more than who is being exploited

There is some but it seems like those are the hot topics that get the most replies / conversation. Certainly besides me and you the World Music is pretty unpopulated, which is a constant disappointment :/

I appreciate World Music a lot, fwiw. I have nothing to contribute, but it's an excellent guide.

When we change it to "Outernational" next year, the postings will be flying. :) I think its human nature that the hot topics get more attention than the discussions of Bassekou Kouyate's latest album or K. Michelle's.

Do any of the outernational non-Brit/non-American/non-European etc threads get lots of postings? The Afro-Latin one does not; the Arab music not otherwise classified does not. I don't go on the K-pop thread much, so I don't know. Same with Japanese pop ones and South Asian ones.

People are just too anxious about discussing African music - they're afraid they might accidentally appropriate something.

Ha ha. I was reading a DC blogger grumbling that most folks involved in the non-profit and governmental etc community in DC do not go out and dance to programmed beat Nigerian and South African dance music in the few clubs in DC that play such sounds. The blogger says that such folks (many of 'em white, former Peace Corps folks), if they listen to music at all, only listen to what he snears at as old-people African music -- made with guitars and such from people in Mali.

xposts
the dancehall one sure doesn't!

you're joking, but actually I do think that for people who are aware of these issues, whether or not they're valid, there's a wariness around discussing African music in a way that doesn't make you sound ignorant...and I am ignorant of huge amounts of African culture.

I feel bad that everytime I look at the dancehall thread I have nothing to contribute and say--but I often enjoy the youtubes posted. Its hard to keep up with everything and to try to grasp an understanding of the underlying cultures that the music comes from.

ha, no worries, a few people have made it clear that they bookmark it and it's not like I often have anything incisive to say. I do wish some of the pros who follow the genre would post, but we all have different posting cycles

Ha ha. I was reading a DC blogger grumbling that most folks involved in the non-profit and governmental etc community in DC do not go out and dance to programmed beat Nigerian and South African dance music in the few clubs in DC that play such sounds. The blogger says that such folks (many of 'em white, former Peace Corps folks), if they listen to music at all, only listen to what he snears at as old-people African music -- made with guitars and such from people in Mali.

Haha I can totally sympathize

Just received this pr email from a publicist about the #1 album on the Billboard World Music charts. Ugh, I admit it, I do not care about this:

CELTIC WOMAN Returns to #1 World Music Chart... "LIVE IN CONCERT" Airs on PBS Through the Holidays!

Why is there not a thread on CELTIC WOMAN and why are there not zillions of posts all mentioning tweets, instagrams, blog discussions, etc. about it. Seriously, I am sure there are folks here into Celtic music, but its not my thing. ‏

i glance at the billboard world music chart occasionally and it very very very rarely contains any albums i'm interested in

I made friends with a group of South African girls once because I was the only American they'd met who new SA house and kwaito.

I would like to get into "world" music because I have some itches that I think cant be scratched by anything else, I was thinking of asking for the best steelpan drum music because I fooking love the sound of that instrument; also stuff with the super tropical fruity sounds that I really like.
I was searching out Calypso a year or two ago and not much of it really fit what I was looking for except Shadow (sometimes called Mighty Shadow; for some reason Calypso artists have names like Mighty Swallow and Mighty Sparrow. I think maybe the "mighty" is added later in their careers?). Great song....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iEpBzIbUKw

Last time I checked this stuff is difficult to find.

The reason I havent put up any of these request threads or participated in the World Music thread is because I'm shoulder deep in several rock/pop genres, I've been meaning to be big in brit/european folk for almost a decade but I've still barely scratched the surface; I also really want to be big into classical but I only have like 5 or 6 classical records.
I recently bought the Rough Guide To Classical Music (someone recommeded it in one of the classical threads) and it is marvellous, but I also thought "Am I ever going to hear even a quarter of these guys, and these are only the superstars, there is way more. In the back there was an advert for the Rough Guide To World Music and I thought "I'll need that too someday, but I'm not ready yet".

come to the world music thread, rag - you're awesome + you'll love it

You've flattered me enough that I'll feel guilty for not going there now. I'll take my questions that I mentioned above.

So yeah this thread concerns some things that are deep in my wheelhouse yet vex me time and time again. So many of my favorite things are technically guilty of exoticization/othering/orientalism. How do I square the perniciousness of the mechanism with the bone deep pleasure I have derived over the years from things like

Debussy Pagodes etc
Britten Curlew River, Death In Venice
Szymanowski 3rd symphony after Rumi
Les Baxter LPs
Miklos Rozsa and Jerry Goldsmith and Henry Mancini film scores
Koechlin's Les Heures Persanes
Bernard Herrmann 7th Voyage of Sinbad
Rimsky FFS
Strauss fantasy operas like Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Delius incidental music for Hassan
Sun City Girls
Gil Evans LPs
Duke Ellington 'Bakiff'
Coltrane 'India' and Ole!
Georges Delerue's many north african tinged film scores
The Russian ballet tradition

This is all stuff which I love with a real fever and I so often respond more strongly to culturally promiscuous and mongrelized versions of things much more than I do to the genuine articles. Or I like the genuine article to be jumbled in a trunk a la the Secret Museum series.

I might note that I am an impoverished american sickly areligious white runt who has never gone ANYWHERE irl despite being well read. I am fucking 43 and have been to Canada and that's it. Is that why I vibe so hard with exotica artifacts from eras when euro/US composers and musicians really hadn't been anywhere in person and used that as an excuse to trip balls? Am I deeply racist for cherishing this stuff?

just an amen to the above post, esp with regard to Duke Ellington and Sun City Girls in particular- they are both entirely self-aware artists who know what they're up to, and part of that does feel like a perverse desire to push the very buttons in question- but the SCGs really do have a love of the things they're stealing (hello Eric Lott's "Love and Theft" argument re: minstrelsy!)- with Ellington it's harder to figure out what his actual take on Asian music was . . .

I guess that's part of why the Mauricio Kagel piece "Exotica" is so amazing to me- it builds the structure of racist fantasy and mimesis into the supposed free space of responding in real time to recordings of ethnic music and works the whole delivery system into itself- it's an inspired way to make music with and about these tense moments of encounter

How could I have forgotten Far East Suite and Afro-Eurasian Eclipse! Durrr.

I rly need to hear that kagel piece.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/05/cultural-appropriation-in-fashion-stop-talking-about-it/370826/

It's kind of fascinating to me how much the pop music machine continues to do essentially what it did in the 50s, i.e. pump out white artists who can make black musical/cultural tropes just slightly more accessible to white audiences. I mean the difference now is that the white artists "appropriating" black music and the black artists coexist more in the pop universe and a listener is more likely to listen to both. But I think we're so used to hearing white artists incorporate diction/vocal tics/slang/dance moves/etc. associated with black culture that we sometimes don't even notice it, e.g. Meaghan Trainor singing that she's "All About That Bass." I mean what's weird to me is that people specifically single out Miley Cyrus twerking as "appropriation" but not like 95% of white pop artists outside of country music.

I don't know that there's anything wrong with cross-cultural borrowing per se, but it seems like what is perceived as "black culture" in 2015 continues to be a space for white people to let loose, be more sexual, be more aggressive, etc. like in certain ways the role of black people in the white imagination hasn't changed much.

Yeah. I was listening to Negativland's "Dispepsi" and there is a clip from a marketing exec about marketing to stereotyping and perceived roles. It basically describes what the entertainment industry is doing now, yes, but also always doing. It isn't limited to a single industry but illustrative of a lot of unresolved cultural issues that are maybe now being more discussed and broadcasted than ever before.

The entertainment industry has always been exploitative of minorities and women, the only question is are we at an all-time high or have things really always just been this bad and not talked about bc of media supremacy?

It's certainly still constant and a serious issue but when a bunch of stars show up to support jay-z's tech venture I can't imagine we're at an "all-time high"

like macklemore is definitely on the timeline with pat boone but i don't think pat boone ever publicly apologized to little richard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ-qRSsmg10

t's kind of fascinating to me how much the pop music machine continues to do essentially what it did in the 50s, i.e. pump out white artists who can make black musical/cultural tropes just slightly more accessible to white audiences...

it seems like what is perceived as "black culture" in 2015 continues to be a space for white people to let loose, be more sexual, be more aggressive, etc. like in certain ways the role of black people in the white imagination hasn't changed much.

Tbf, the American popular music industry (which owes some of its early history to the minstrel show era) was doing this before the 50s. Cf. the Jazz Age, etc.

I'm kind of fascinated that someone could post the OP on ILM in 2001 and have several people agree with him.

I wasn't quite here yet, but wasn't Dave Q known for those kinds of posts, as a schtick? He was like the "hot takes" guy of earlier ILM, is my impression.

iirc ILM 2001 was into white boy bands doing Eurofied takes on Tony! Toni! Toné!

lol