Fair point, but it's also kinda beside the point. Indie is as indie does, and declaring the term invalid won't make the concept go away.
Had more to do with disengaging from the uglier aspects of the market than with the market as a whole. After all, the market wasn't any LESS dominant in '88.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:05 (fifteen years ago) link
Thing is, these are ALL indie mags.
If Mojo is an indie mag, then The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan and David Bowie are all indie acts.
Don't confuse indie with "white guys with guitars".
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:07 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, Mojo is not an indie mag. (term in abeyance, but still)
The rest stands though.
― Mark G, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:09 (fifteen years ago) link
Don't confuse "white guys with guitars" with indie.
(I'm clearly tired, off to bed with me)
― Mark G, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:10 (fifteen years ago) link
Okay, I stepped over the line w/ Mojo. Mea culpa.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:12 (fifteen years ago) link
Out of current music, Mojo tends to prefer indie though. At least besides "returns to form" by old Mojo favourites.
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:15 (fifteen years ago) link
That was kinda my point. If your year end list is dominated by indie acts, it doesn't matter what your nominal beat is, you're in thrall.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:16 (fifteen years ago) link
the thing with mojo is that it ties in perfectly with indie, 'cause indie is all about the olden-days-rawk influences.
i'm sure there's a lot of crossover between classic rock fans and indie-heads when it comes to acts like the white stripes or whatever.
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:18 (fifteen years ago) link
"she wears denim wherever she goes, says she's gonna get some records by the status quo..."
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:20 (fifteen years ago) link
If your year end list is dominated by indie acts, it doesn't matter what your nominal beat is, you're in thrall.
But the point here is, most of the albums that Mojo would want to put in their year-end list don't qualify. Because they aren't new. Mojo's "This year's best re-releases" list is probably a better reflection of the taste of Mojo writers and readers than the new releases one.
And, yes, indie is currently about the olden day rawk influences. Which is exactly why indie today (unlike 80s indie) is so great, and so much better than at least anything else being released during the past 20 years. Because it has the timeless qualities that makes it sound like it might as well have been made 30 years ago. Back when pop music was good, and not bad like today.
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:21 (fifteen years ago) link
(well, along with other retro trends like electro and neoprog, both of which have also produced some of the best albums of the past 20 years)
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:22 (fifteen years ago) link
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:24 (fifteen years ago) link
The cenception of indie that views all music forms as annexable territory is not the "indie = boys w/ guitars" concept.
"The Concept" is a killer tune tho.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:26 (fifteen years ago) link
indie wasn't about old influences in the 80s?
it was all about the byrdsey janglesomeness, that what differentiates it from the artsyness and innovation of post-punk, that's where it started as a musical genre.
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:26 (fifteen years ago) link
If 80s indie = dino jr, then yeah, 80s indie = old influences.
But if 80s indie = big black, then not so much.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:27 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm American and I'm talking about American indie here. I understand things aren't quite the same across the body of water over there. Signal to noise.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:29 (fifteen years ago) link
-- contenderizer, Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:26 AM
we've got totally different definitions here then.
i would say white boho/electronic stuff like beck or the beasties comes under the heading of "alt" or something. i still think of indie as being meta-classic rock.
big black to me were coming out of the tail end of post-punk or something...
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:30 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah, i'm from the uk. altho i think a lot of brits would agree somewhat with your idea of indie.
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:31 (fifteen years ago) link
Well, current Brit indie is definitely about old influences. Or at least the Britpop subgenre of Brit indie is.
But there is also a lot of music with old influences that couldn't possibly be called indie. For instance, Amy Winehouse very obviously has old influences. (But again, not white guys with guitars)
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:32 (fifteen years ago) link
I guess I'm just intrigued by the stuff I mentioned upthread. Why does P-Fork (arguably the web epicenter of American indie music) try to cover the ENTIRE spectrum of pop/art music, when similar sites/mags affiliated with other genres tend to stick to their pond?
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:36 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah, this is a good question.
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:37 (fifteen years ago) link
Why don't all mags cover the entire spectrum of pop music. They used to in the past. Before Mixmag and hip-hop specialist mags started popping up, there was Kerrang and that was that. All other mags were generalist.
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:38 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, exactly. That's the flipside to the same question.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:39 (fifteen years ago) link
I mean, if we suppose that Q's readers are mainly into indie, Q certainly does a job of trying to open up their readers to the best stuff within other genres. Why don't Mixmag try to open up their readers to the best stuff without other genres than the ones Mixmag's readers are mostly into?
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:40 (fifteen years ago) link
Does the Source feel the need to weigh in on the new Shins? Why not? What's the difference in POV?
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:41 (fifteen years ago) link
Best thing about this thread is that it's running parallel to this one.
Allows one a grace period for being dorky.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:49 (fifteen years ago) link
maaaaybe:
pop music has become increasingly fragmented, yet indie still retains ideas of importance and universality left over from the classic rock days it takes its cues from... so therefore indie writers feel the urge to branch out a bit, include some other things that seem as relevant.
― jeremy waters, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:51 (fifteen years ago) link
The key is: Classic rock was universal and all important back in the day. Indie still is, to those of us who pay attention. Those who don't, well, let them have their world. And, you know, apart from a few white middle class people, most fans of dance or hip-hop wouldn't bother bitching about indie's dominance of music media, as long as their favourite music dominates all other media anyway.
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:53 (fifteen years ago) link
Another thing: I don't like the indie term that much myself as it doesn't really describe what the genre is about anymore.
Basically, Q is a classic rock mag more than an indie mag. Only the classic rock they write about was made in 2008 rather than in 1968. For instance, Coldplay, Travis and Keane obviously have way more in common with classic rock than with indie. And Q readers tend to be huge fans of those three.
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:57 (fifteen years ago) link
(Some may call them AOR rather than Classic Rock, but Classic Rock stations do play a lot of AOR)
― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 23:58 (fifteen years ago) link
indie centerpiece vs. herb alpert centerpiece
http://borrowedblossoms.com/mpc/docs/images/center_45rpm_record.jpg
― tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 00:00 (fifteen years ago) link
This didn't really go the way I wanted it to.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 01:09 (fifteen years ago) link
Slightly off-topic, because I cannot follow the above discussion at all, but are we using "indie" to refer to "indie rock" or music that is independent or lesser-known? Because to be completely honest, the three stages of music listening referred to at the very top of this thread could apply to people that listen to indie rock or indie metal or indie rap or indie electronica or whatever other genre I've missed.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:18 (fifteen years ago) link
I was using the term indie to refer to a very broad genre that incorporates but is not limited to "indie" (guitar-based pop) and "indie rock" (late 80s/early 90s style "underground" music). Basically the Pitchfork universe. Dominated by literate, sensitive, guitar-driven pop, but branching out in lots of directions from there.
Agree the the stages of listening Ned described way back when aren't at all unique to indie fans.
My interest was in how indie defines and constructs itself, with regard to ostensibly non-indie music. Was springing off the OP to observe that indie rock (as a big amorphous social blob) seems to place a premium on familiarity with ALL music EVERYWHERE, and that other genre's don't generally do this.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:25 (fifteen years ago) link
Note to self: use imagination powers to fix bad writing in last post.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:26 (fifteen years ago) link
Re: why the Source doesn't cover the Shins, I think the 'indie' world view takes a lot of pride in intelligence, it's 'thinking man's rock' and a thinking man would take pride in a broad perspective, right? So they naturally dabble in all sorts of genres in order to appear worldly and intellectual.
Other genres/scenes don't seem to have that conceit, they don't have that link between intellect and musical taste. In indie's case it's a defining characteristic.
― adamj, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:28 (fifteen years ago) link
Like (to make a nebulous concept concrete for me) how some indie artists attempt to do "metal" albums (thinking specifically of Goblin Cock here), or how you have bands on the Invaders compilation in where it's clearly dudes that listen to indie rock starting metal bands?
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:28 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah, I think that's exactly right, if a bit harshly worded. To be honest, I've had something similar floating around in my head since the revive here, but couldn't come up with a good way to articulate it.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:31 (fifteen years ago) link
that was to the X
I guess that self-defined position as "thinking person's music" answers the OP's question and mine. Indie isn't necessarily seen as the center of a musical universe, but rather sees itself as existing in the center OF a musical universe. By the act of regarding (expressing an interest in) "other genres", it organizes them in a manner that makes them seem somehow subordinate - like cultural accessories.
I don't think this is wrong or bad or "oh noes, cultural imperialism", but it's very different from the often isolationist/protectionist stance of other genres.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:36 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah that sounded a bit dickish, eh? Wasn't trying to judge, just didn't word it well enough. I don't hate you, indie, I promise.
― adamj, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:38 (fifteen years ago) link
...that link between intellect and musical taste. In indie's case it's a defining characteristic.-- adamj
-- adamj
Hell, I think presumed intellectual/aesthetic superiority is maybe THE defining characteristic. It's the only unifying point I can see between, say, Big Black, MF Doom and Belle & Sebastian.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:44 (fifteen years ago) link
Presumed by an audience who places a premium on intelligence, I mean.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:45 (fifteen years ago) link
I think maybe part of the difference between indie and other genres is that (from what I've witnessed) indie people tend to pat themselves on the back for incorporating elements from other genres, whereas in other genres, bands either assimilate other influences quietly or get lambasted for selling out.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:48 (fifteen years ago) link
(To wit, the critical love Vampire Weekend get for incorporating African rhythms)
And by "selling out" I mean that, at least in metal, which is the only genre I can really speak confidently about, the fans seem to be very wary of both acts that change direction and new genre hybrids, i.e., rap metal or metalcore, which probably fits in with what you were saying earlier about the isolationist/protectionist stances.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:52 (fifteen years ago) link
indie people tend to pat themselves on the back for incorporating elements from other genres
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:55 (fifteen years ago) link
Yeah. I think indie people (including me), tend to pat themselves on the back for being aware - or worse, "correctly aware" - of as many things as possible.
like liberals?
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:57 (fifteen years ago) link
It's funny too, 'cuz indie's desire to be friends with ALL GENRE makes it (unsurprisingly) something of a pariah. Nobody wants indie coming around with its Plastic Littles and Early Mans and fucking up what used to be a perfectly nice place we got here.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:57 (fifteen years ago) link
Well, as shown above, "indie" is such a broad, encompassing genre, whereas fans/purveyors of rap, metal, electronica etc., have (in a very general sense, of course) more concrete genre aesthetics.
― Jeff Treppel, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 02:58 (fifteen years ago) link
"Indie fans will never answer "indie"."
You've obviously never met my girlfriend's sister, who (along with her boyfriend) I use as my default indie strawman. And when I was in high school, I definitely used to say that I listened mostly to indie rock, even though that both was and wasn't true (indie rock and industrial, and that industrial was almost all on indie labels and was a form of rock, but wasn't indie rock, know'm'sayin'?).
As for the question, I usually go with either whatever I've been listening to most recently (today, Notorious Byrds) or a made-up answer like "Fartcore."
Regarding the amoeba-like grasp of "indie," I remember feeling confused one day when my neighbors, all recent immigrants from various SE Asian countries, were playing reggaeton loudly. They'd only ever played, like, Canto-pop (and Vietnamese versions of the same), and I was stuck between thinking "How odd—it's all in Spanish," and castigating myself for racist assumptions.
― I eat cannibals, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:59 (fifteen years ago) link
Indie fans will never answer "indie".
obviously RONG
― stephen, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:45 (fifteen years ago) link
indie = punks got into the 60s (but you know, before all the trippy stuff)
― jeremy waters, Thursday, 22 May 2008 21:26 (fifteen years ago) link