The reason I don't think bitcoin is a pure pyramid scheme is that I think the technology really will find more valuable uses in the near future. It's perfectly possible that it will be a copy of or improvement on bitcoin instead of bitcoin itself. Smart coder people I know say the coding behind bitcoin is very impressive and not something easy to copy, but I'm just taking their word for it, and it does seem like if enough money backs the project of doing so, it can be done. But I do think bitcoins are an interesting new thing and not meaningless techno-baubles. I don't know whether that translates to bitcoins being worth $1 or $1000 or $100000 each. But I think anyone who claims to be certain it's a "bubble" at a given price is just blustering, and so is anyone who's sure it isn't, because there are too many variables and unknowns as to what bitcoin winds up being, if anything. With something like the housing bubble or the tech bubble you could look at a set of underlying historical norms, fundamentals, etc. With something like Beanie Babies it's easy enough to see, where there's literally no value to the thing other than the potential to become worth more one day. With a pyramid scheme or a ponzi scheme you can look at the structure of the thing and see that it can't be perpetuated indefinitely by nature. I don't think bitcoin is that simple a call.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Sunday, 2 March 2014 05:58 (ten years ago) link
So even though it's fun to laugh at techno-utopian paultards and the like, and even though I partake in that often, I say the jury is out on bitcoin.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Sunday, 2 March 2014 06:00 (ten years ago) link
btw this is a better explanation of its potential use in money transfers than I was able to muster:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/11/how-bitcoin-can-mainstream-in-one-easy-step.html
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Sunday, 2 March 2014 06:03 (ten years ago) link
potential use in money transfers and also why today's computerized money transfers are still big and unwieldy and expensive and not just a matter of clicking money from A to B
I'm pretty certain something using protocols inspired or copied from bitcoin will do many of the things that bitcoin was touted to do, but for bitcoin itself, yes, the very structure of it looks designed to be unsustainable and pyramidy from the getgo.
― Philip Nunez, Sunday, 2 March 2014 06:30 (ten years ago) link
I really really despise the use of 'fiat money' to describe circulating currencies. It really says everything that is wrong with the mindset of goldbugs, libertarians and the like. I'd hate it to enter common usage.
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Sunday, 2 March 2014 06:53 (ten years ago) link
what a wonderful world it would be if we were paying for everything like this
http://s.petrolicious.com/market/fiat/fiat-124-spider-5.jpg
― set the trolls for the heart of the sun (how's life), Sunday, 2 March 2014 11:34 (ten years ago) link
In any case I'll start calling bitcoins "currency" only when the local grocery store, my dentist, the insurance company et al. atart accepting them as payment.
I want to say I've seen bitcoin popping up here and there as a payment option ...
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 2 March 2014 13:58 (ten years ago) link
As goes Overstock.com, so goes the nation
― sXe & the banshees (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 2 March 2014 14:27 (ten years ago) link
this site detailing the various crypto currencies is amazinghttp://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency
― ( X '____' )/ (zappi), Sunday, 2 March 2014 14:35 (ten years ago) link
all in on Noirbits
― spacemindy, Sunday, 2 March 2014 16:39 (ten years ago) link
if someone could explain these things to me simply, it'd be a big help. most of it is down to my dim/abstract understanding of how bitcoin even works
1. i don't understand the mt. gox heist. there was some sort of bug that allowed transactions to be spoofed or double-counted or something -- but isn't each 'coin' essentially a block of alphanumeric characters making everything traceable? i guess i don't get how that meshes with anonymity -- if there's an infinite paper trail, don't they know exactly who has the stolen loot? or at least, exactly where it went?
2. if the nature of the heist was that transactions were faked/doubled -- i thought that the whole point of this thing (how it mimicked gold) is that each chunk of BTC was irreproduceable, only "mineable" via computing the originating algorithm. IS that they heist? they made people think they'd received their goods when the "real" string went somewhere else?
3. what did the losing depositors at mt. gox actually lose, their BTC, or the USD they put in in exchange?
idk i'd like to be able to make fun of this accurately w/o doing a lot more homework.
― goole, Monday, 3 March 2014 18:08 (ten years ago) link
I can't belive dogecoin is a real thing
― Brian Eno's Mother (Latham Green), Monday, 3 March 2014 18:25 (ten years ago) link
I know someone who has sunk close to a thousand on Bitcoin stuff. Coins, mining boxes, etc. I'm pretty fiscally conservative so I think he's nuts, but it's interesting to watch. I guess nobody bought into MtGox that was paying any attention. It's a little heartbreaking to see him spend a lot of 'real money' to get this 'virtual money' but who knows maybe in 5 years he will be a millionaire.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 3 March 2014 18:45 (ten years ago) link
My understanding of the Mt. Gox scandal is that they screwed up in the same way a disinterested cashier at a big box store gives refunds to people who return playstation boxes with bricks inside them with a fake receipt.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 3 March 2014 18:50 (ten years ago) link
I do think the people who started mining early may have made out okay (although the 'best' way to get $$$ out would be to buy drugs, then sell the drugs for cash). mining is insanely unprofitable right now and I cannot see BTC holding much value five years from now.
― frogbs, Monday, 3 March 2014 18:55 (ten years ago) link
ah, i see, thx philip
― goole, Monday, 3 March 2014 18:58 (ten years ago) link
there was a service called "brainwallet" which allowed you to store your private key with a password, and some bot was able to hack into a bunch of these with a dictionary attack that included various Ayn Rand quotes and XKCD references. point is lolbitcoiners
― frogbs, Monday, 3 March 2014 19:01 (ten years ago) link
a dictionary attack that included various Ayn Rand quotes and XKCD references
this is the greatest thing ever
― bi-polar uncle (its OK-he's dead) (Phil D.), Monday, 3 March 2014 19:04 (ten years ago) link
I do think the people who started mining early may have made out okay...― frogbs, Monday, March 3, 2014 10:55 AM (13 minutes ago)
― frogbs, Monday, March 3, 2014 10:55 AM (13 minutes ago)
50% of bitcoin wealth belongs to 0.1% of bitcoin owners.
Not one-percent, but one-tenth of a percent.
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Monday, 3 March 2014 19:10 (ten years ago) link
if there's an infinite paper trail, don't they know exactly who has the stolen loot? or at least, exactly where it went?
you may want to look up what a "bitcoin tumbler" is. I mean I'm guessing you don't care enough to do so but essentially it takes your coins and a bunch of other people's coins and distributes them randomly to a bunch of public addresses and then back again, so you can't know what coins belonged to who. It would be like if I had a service where people could send all their dirty money to me, then I'd throw it all up in the air and give everyone back the amount they sent me. Which means in theory one of these services could just steal all the money, but that hasn't happened yet.
― frogbs, Monday, 3 March 2014 19:14 (ten years ago) link
Taking a crack at your questions, goole:
1. Yes, there is an infinite paper trail, but that trail only leads you to anonymous accounts. Linking those to people could be difficult, though I would speculate that someone with the resources of an FBI could probably do it, though not sure the FBI will get involved.
2. That's the bug that Gox is blaming, but I wouldn't be surprised if the flaw turned out to be something else. Only time will tell. I have a feeling the true story hasn't even started to come out yet.
3. I think only the BTC were stolen, but probably even those with USD claims can only hope for cents on the dollar at this point.
― o. nate, Monday, 3 March 2014 19:16 (ten years ago) link
well Gox has more liabilities than assets, not even counting Bitcoins. don't forget that the DOJ is "holding" a lot of their money for them..
anyway as o.nate points out this may not even be a theft. apparently a ton of bitcoins sit in accounts that Gox once transferred cash to in 2011 to prove they were still solvent (after they got hacked the first time), and they still haven't moved, so there's a chance that they may have just lost the private key (!!).
― frogbs, Monday, 3 March 2014 19:19 (ten years ago) link
I had an extra computer and free electricity last year and mining still made less monetary sense than parting out the computer on Ebay.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Monday, 3 March 2014 19:19 (ten years ago) link
i mean that's really the despicable thing about all this, there's soooo much electricity being wasted on this to create essentially nothing
― frogbs, Monday, 3 March 2014 19:22 (ten years ago) link
Hmm, apparently also $27 million in cash missing:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/03/mtgox-code-posted-by-hackers-as-company-files-for-bankruptcy-protection/
― o. nate, Monday, 3 March 2014 19:30 (ten years ago) link
im wondering when the pr0n industry will come up with f***coins
― Brian Eno's Mother (Latham Green), Monday, 3 March 2014 21:16 (ten years ago) link
t*tcoins. please.
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 3 March 2014 21:17 (ten years ago) link
fartcoins and totcoins
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 3 March 2014 21:46 (ten years ago) link
The Japanese government will set rules for trading bitcoins, defining the virtual tender not as a currency but as a commodity akin to gold.
Trading gains will be taxed, and companies will need to pay tax on revenue earned from Bitcoin transactions. But enforcement could prove difficult, as tax authorities will have to track down users.
― anonanon, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 19:29 (ten years ago) link
2 days til Snoopcoinhttps://becausepool.com/dogg/
― calstars, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 19:32 (ten years ago) link
Smart move by the Japanese government. Establishes the legal norm and allows penalties for non-payment of the tax. Difficulty of enforcement is not the main issue imo.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 19:34 (ten years ago) link
sounds like this is just going to give them the ability to prosecute people
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 19:51 (ten years ago) link
http://static.adzrk.net/Advertisers/5af77cf0094d4303bb308b955dd05992.jpg
― panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:04 (ten years ago) link
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/12/bitcoin-guide-3-17102.htmhttp://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/12/bitcoin-guide-2-17049.htm
― PSY talks The Nut Job (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:13 (ten years ago) link
anybody on ilx play poker with bitcoins? seems like the most reasonable way to use this stuff: as magical play money
― PSY talks The Nut Job (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:14 (ten years ago) link
on the other hand
Despite the collapse of the biggest Bitcoin exchange, Tokyo-based Mt. Gox, which cost its customers $500 million in cryptocurrency deposits, the U.K. authorities are about to endorse the virtual currency. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs announced that it would not charge the 20 percent value-added tax on Bitcoin trades or even on traders' margins. This means the U.K. is prepared to treat Bitcoin as money in the framework of an EU law that exempts payments and transfers of "negotiable instruments" from tax. Thanks to the ruling, London may soon become the capital of the Bitcoin world and the decentralized currency may yet rebuild its reputation after the recent scandals.
― anonanon, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:28 (ten years ago) link
looks like Poloniex (another BTC exchange) got hacked, it never ends
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:40 (ten years ago) link
is that separate from the flexcoin exchange? that one was hit also
― anonanon, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:48 (ten years ago) link
http://i62.tinypic.com/209ojzn.png
― real myst opportunity (sleepingbag), Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:51 (ten years ago) link
this UK thing still doesn't explain why anyone would actually want to use bitcoins
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:51 (ten years ago) link
haha read iXcoin those as ilxcoin for a sec
― sleeve, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 21:57 (ten years ago) link
http://coinmarketcap.com/
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 4 March 2014 22:00 (ten years ago) link
bitbugs remind me of the anti vaccination crowd, so fixated on a fear with a remote possibility of happening (autism/collapse of dollar) when their solution is much more likely to fuck them over (polio/pertussis/MMR/bitcoin exchange collpase and or theft)
though I guess that's true of a lot of human nature
― anonanon, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 22:05 (ten years ago) link
So far it seems that Bitcoin offers unproven, speculative benefits for legitimate users and numerous, well-established advantages for hackers and criminals.
― o. nate, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 22:06 (ten years ago) link
truth bomb:
Bitcoin, at the moment, is in a slump, with a community that has become its own parody … The Bitcoin masses, judging by their behavior on forums, have no actual interest in science, technology or even objective reality when it interferes with their market position. They believe that holding a Bitcoin somehow makes them an active participant in a bold new future, even as they passively get fleeced in the bolder current present.
cross posted from other thread:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/doomsday-cult-of-bitcoin.html
― sleeve, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 23:16 (ten years ago) link
"...Mt. Gox, a former Magic: The Gathering card exchange that morphed into Bitcoin’s largest trading floor..."
I did not know this.
― nickn, Wednesday, 5 March 2014 00:44 (ten years ago) link
mind was blown when i realized mt gox was an acronym for magic the gathering online xchange
― PSY talks The Nut Job (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 5 March 2014 02:39 (ten years ago) link
I have no idea how realistic this is, but it's interesting to think about. Definitely there are lots of suggestive loose ends.
Peter R’s Theory on the Collapse of Mt. Goxhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=497289.0
― o. nate, Wednesday, 5 March 2014 03:19 (ten years ago) link
I love how some "journalists" think it's actual "news" or "reporting" when they just recycle a bunch of old "doom & gloom" related Bitcoin stories and act as though their uneducated opinion actually counts for something. Bitcoin is about the future... and this reporter is living in the past. Why not report on any of the numerous good things Bitcoin is doing and actually make a contribution to society rather than dumbing it down. Just say'n... Although I have much more I'd like to say, I'll stop right there because it's obviously pointless with some people and I have better things to do than get in a "Comments" shouting match. If you're genuinely happy & satisfied with the way things are in this economy & have no hopes or ambition to change the future (or at least "report" on it)... then that's fine by me. I'll be sure to wave every once in awhile when I look back and see you in my rear view mirror....
― joe perry has been dead for years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 5 March 2014 03:24 (ten years ago) link