But it’s true that the first script was better organised
To be fair, it was also a simpler story. One party is easier to follow than three parties. But I completely agree that it was the best of the movies.
― jmm, Thursday, 15 May 2014 14:09 (nine years ago) link
Dow: well that's a lot to unpack! Mark S is the one who I think would lock into your read most readily and would be able to advise, so take what I'm about to say with grains of salt: If you want to read the Silmarillion as the book that some characters in LOTR would read themselves (which is how it's intended) then that'll help. If anything it'll play up the idea of cycles -- Tolkien himself went through some major revisions of Middle-earth as conceit in the last ten years of his life so if anything the final three manuscript collections -- Morgoth's Ring, The War of the Jewels and to a degree The Peoples of Middle Earth -- might be of particular interest, though I'd say you'd want to read them only after having read The Silmarillion first. The Children of Hurin expands one key tale from there in full.
Beyond that: Unfinished Tales has some of my favorite writing of his, especially 'Aldarion and Erendis,' which is as close as he ever got to a domestic drama. And of the many shorter works, Farmer Giles of Ham is a goofy-ass lark, but Smith of Wootton Major and Leaf by Niggle are complementary tales on the same idea of creativity and its worth, the latter story in an explicitly Catholic context.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 15 May 2014 14:38 (nine years ago) link
what Ned said.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 15 May 2014 14:54 (nine years ago) link
Silmarillion = tolkein's Kalevala basically
― Khamma chameleon (Jon Lewis), Thursday, 15 May 2014 14:59 (nine years ago) link
Great, thanks so much, guys! All those appendices in the edition I read were helpful too. Extended entries in the online Science Fiction Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia of Fantasy were what convinced me to try again: knowing what would happen just whetted my appetite for seeing how he would manage all that. My local library has a lot of Tolkien and related material, like the mostly excellent Tales Before Tolkien, in which Douglas Anderson rounds up stories by authors JRR praised, and/or was evidently influenced by, others he might well have read, plus some cool ringers. Will indeed consult with Mark.
― dow, Thursday, 15 May 2014 15:07 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, the appendices were Tolkien's way of getting the then-unpublished Silmarillion material out there a bit, but even then it was only a very swift redaction. Definitely piqued my interest for sure first time through! Anyway, enjoy the further reading!
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 15 May 2014 15:15 (nine years ago) link
lots of great arcane lore to enjoy in 'the simarillion' and 'unfinished tales', like about gandalf and the istari etc. wish there were ten times as much
http://s5775.p9.sites.pressdns.com/istari-2/
― reggie (qualmsley), Thursday, 15 May 2014 16:03 (nine years ago) link
Everyone otm nice post dow
― james lipton and his francs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 May 2014 16:07 (nine years ago) link
Thanks. Wondering about his recently published version of Beowulf too.
― dow, Thursday, 15 May 2014 16:15 (nine years ago) link
Not quite out yet, I think! A few more weeks? Been meaning to catch up with that and the other translations/scattered efforts that Christopher T. has overseen.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 15 May 2014 16:27 (nine years ago) link
dow otm. reminds me that i started rereading LOTR last year then got distracted by a move, need to get back on that.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 15 May 2014 17:38 (nine years ago) link
http://dubs.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/lord-of-the-rings-completely-screwed-over-is-back-3/
just watched this rectnly
― Brian Eno's Mother (Latham Green), Thursday, 15 May 2014 20:06 (nine years ago) link
Meantime, this is really fascinating stuff to learn: a recording from the only fan event of its kind Tolkien ever seems to have attended, from 1958 in Rotterdam, has surfaced:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noble-smith/jrr-tolkien-reveals-the-t_b_5373529.html
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 23 May 2014 16:36 (nine years ago) link
wow, that's really awesome!
photo of tolkien there is absolutely wonderful, too.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 23 May 2014 21:06 (nine years ago) link
Yeah it's great. Almost one of a kind, much like the event.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 23 May 2014 21:09 (nine years ago) link
Awesome! Ready for the whole thing. Auden, one of Tolkien's students, attended a groovy Middle-Earth event in 1966: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/12/w-h-audens-defense-of-the-lord-of-the-rings.html
― dow, Friday, 23 May 2014 22:31 (nine years ago) link
I'd heard about that. Amazing to imagine what that was like.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 23 May 2014 22:39 (nine years ago) link
But the circling strings --> staccato stabs --> mournful theme of the main title music haunted my childhood.
in my head since I woke up
― nakh is the wintour of our diss content (darraghmac), Saturday, 23 August 2014 12:40 (nine years ago) link
Shore's 'history of the ring' right? Awesome piece. The Rosenman stuff for bakshi also rules tho
― before you die you see the rink (Jon Lewis), Saturday, 23 August 2014 18:19 (nine years ago) link
no! the BBC theme from the 1981 radio version.
― nakh is the wintour of our diss content (darraghmac), Saturday, 23 August 2014 19:31 (nine years ago) link
but yeah I like shores.
if Jackman took on the silmarillion in the style of the precis of the history of the ring from the movies I'd be OK with that I guess.
― nakh is the wintour of our diss content (darraghmac), Saturday, 23 August 2014 19:32 (nine years ago) link
Hugh Jackman, definitely meant him.
he BBC theme from the 1981 radio version.
― nakh is the wintour of our diss content (darraghmac)
Great theme!
Also like Shore, probably the best of the current heroic movie composers.
― the joke should be over once the kid is eaten. (chap), Saturday, 23 August 2014 20:35 (nine years ago) link
reading fellowship again with my children and it becomes clear to me - and them - that despite his status as like the dirk pitt of middle earth, strider manages to fuck up just about every part of the journey from bree to rivendell
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 22:07 (three years ago) link
hes kinda dropped in it and admits as much many times
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 22:37 (three years ago) link
And whose idea was it to take the Caradhras Pass, eh?
― archangel's thunderpants (Matt #2), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 22:46 (three years ago) link
that sense of being hunted and lost, the "behind enemy lines" vibe of the first book through rivendell is so great.
i think strider being somewhat obscure in his abilities- capable, trusted by gandalf, sure, but unsure, imperfect, certainly not up to taking on the forces hes up against and knows it- is critical to the shift from hobbit-sized danger to a story that becomes a young adult/adult touchstone.
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 22:47 (three years ago) link
ppl will refer to lotr as a work that birthed every cliche going but there's something quite striking in how useless direct confrontation is with a powerful enemy is, and how *badly* it turns out time and time again.
only second tier characters want to fight, gandalf and strider are the most powerful respectively in magic and arms of the fellowship and they spend large parts of the story avoiding having to demonstrate this and the story makes a point of demonstrating why, imo
of course, the movie glorying in special moves like a final fantasy cut scene gets this utterly wrong also.
might read it again with this new-sprung take tbh
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 22:56 (three years ago) link
'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?''No, I think not,' said Strider.
'No, I think not,' said Strider.
but two grafs later Butterbur is telling Nob to bar the doors and the hobbits not to go to their rooms - and the next morning they find their appointed beds to have been knifed in the night
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:03 (three years ago) link
which attack strider avoided
this is a witch hunt
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:06 (three years ago) link
they make for Weathertop even though the Riders 'are likely to make for Weathertop themselves'. even though they tramp 5 days through the Midgewater Marshes to avoid the Riders they're now heading straight for the place the Riders probably are too!
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:21 (three years ago) link
he allows Sam and Pippin to trample the ground of the dell behind this key staging post, essentially wiping its browser history, and says 'I wish I had waited and explored the ground down here myself'
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:22 (three years ago) link
of standing on the actual tippy top of Weathertop itself, he says he was 'too careless on the hill-top. ... It was a mistake for three of us to go up and stand there so long.'
as they build a campfire, scared out of their minds, Strider says 'there is little shelter or defense here' - thanks, Strider - 'but fire shall serve for both.'
the Riders promptly attack them anyway.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:23 (three years ago) link
'Is this troll country?''No!' said Strider.
'No!' said Strider.
two days later they find a door built into the rock of a hillside. Strider: 'It is certainly a troll-hole.'
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:26 (three years ago) link
all i'm saying is, teach the controversy
in a terrible scenario its very ilxy of you to focus all your judgement of the guy on your side trying to do something to avoid almost inevitable disaster who is already too hard on himself for the imperfections inherent in the attempt
imo
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:29 (three years ago) link
xp no im enjoying it
fresh lotr takes are good. the book is quite vague in a lot of aspects!
lol i'm not mad at strider. it's just that as a kid i'd imagined him as kind of impossibly competent - the quiet hero who could follow any trail, who could suss out any danger. and now i'm reading it and just see him making all kinds of bad calls! just straight up wrong about stuff.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:33 (three years ago) link
Strider is running up against the limit of the usefulness of the guidance he received when he was captain of a stolen Nazi U-Boat and his master chief advised him “Don’t ever say ‘I don’t know!’ Those words will kill a crew, dead as a depth charge!”Now Strider finds himself on land, in charge of completely untrained amateurs, he realizes he still can’t say “I don’t know,” even though he really absolutely does not know. Except about which fights they are guaranteed to lose.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:36 (three years ago) link
There's a deep cut.
Anyway thank you for potentially contributing a subject to a future episode of the podcast hey did I mention I have a Tolkien podcast thanks great you're all wonderful people.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:38 (three years ago) link
the quiet hero who could follow any trail, who could suss out any danger.
i think tolkien in LOTR is big on even these guys being fuck all use against a cohort of witch kings who know where you are going while you are carrying four gravy babies who think they are on a daytrip to bath.
also fwiw and iirc strider is v much aware that hes heading where hed rather not go but its gandalf fucked that up
its all good general/sergeant comment on how it is once the feet hit the ground
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:45 (three years ago) link
ofc silmarillion and legends in lotr and elsewhere are full of the heroes that just did it and were legends (obv) or even whose failures were grand, decisive simple events
imo thats him being a bit meta about nature of legends and distilled tales and what they are used for vs "oh fuck we're here now and its not beowulf its wilfred owen oh fuck oh fuck ohfuck"
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:48 (three years ago) link
dulcimar et decorum est pro patria moria, as i shall title the essay on the topic
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:49 (three years ago) link
nb none of my apologies for strider should be taken as discouraging the continued attacking tracer, this court martial is v invigorating imo
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:57 (three years ago) link
pippin is for the fuckin noose if we're going to be consistent, mind
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 April 2020 23:58 (three years ago) link
Imagining if Gandalf just threw him down the guard room shaft.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:25 (three years ago) link
strider/aragorn's transcendent heroism is something literature can't convey, implies one of the greatest 20th century professors of english literature. see 1) all the references to post-hobbit - pre-fellowship northern ranging, 2) however the hell he and the phantoms commandeer the ships of the corsairs to win the day at the battle of the pelennor fields, and 3) he and faramir taking it to the dregs of mordor and the southrons in the return of the king appendices detailing the dawn of the fourth age
― reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:27 (three years ago) link
helms deep worth a mention youd say
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:30 (three years ago) link
that and 2 & 3 all disasters (albeit heroic doomed-to-fail let's try anyway attempts) salvaged by deus ex machina resolutions mind you
lucky generals and all that
― kim rong un (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 April 2020 00:32 (three years ago) link
I hope that these are new versions of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Thursday, 23 February 2023 22:01 (one year ago) link
LOTRCU
― what have I done to deserve you (lukas), Thursday, 23 February 2023 22:02 (one year ago) link
If we get movies about the fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthien, and Ungoliant and the distruction of the trees of Valinor that'd be cool
― octobeard, Thursday, 23 February 2023 22:14 (one year ago) link
that article isn't clear at all on what these are, I certainly hope they are not remakes.
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Thursday, 23 February 2023 22:15 (one year ago) link
Ha, made the same joke to my cohosts. (We are not sanguine.)
Here's the key part here:
Freemode, a division of Embracer Group, made the adaptive rights deal for books including “The Lord of the Rings” and “The Hobbit.” The pact will be billed under the name Middle-earth Enterprises.
Embracer, who have been hoovering up a LOT of things, took over the rights from the 'original' as such Middle-earth Enterprises, who cashed out about a year back after holding onto them for fifty years -- that was the company that Saul Zaentz organized when he got the Hobbit/LOTR film rights in the early 70s, after they were briefly held by UA directly. Everything you've seen since on a cinematic or staging front, plus various other merchandising things that fall under that general umbrella, ultimately were controlled/licensed from the Zaentz team, first as Tolkien Enterprises and then as Middle-earth Enterprises as noted, a name this new venture is now incorporating. (The Rankin-Bass adaptations were the weird stepchildren that fell into an unclear rights void.) Anyway, by this I mean Bakshi's film, the two Jackson trilogies, even the stage musical from the 2000s.
akm is correct on what these are or aren't supposed to be. They could, if they wanted to, go for remakes. They could do works derived from Hobbit/LOTR. Embracer made noises about doing separate films based on characters a while back. That they've partnered with Warner Bros rather than doing something separate does make a certain sense; WB would like to hold on to their franchise opportunities and Embracer doesn't have to build from the ground up. In ways, this is just a recalibration of the original Zaentz situation when it came to dealing with studios/producers interested in developing things.
If you're wondering about how the Amazon show exactly fits into all this: Amazon used a carveout in the rights specifically regarding TV. They can do whatever they want within the scope of that deal, but it applies strictly to Hobbit/LOTR material, nothing more, which is why so much of the first season was, in essence, invented nonsense.
It's worth further noting that all this is due to Tolkien himself agreeing to a rights deal back in the late 60s, which specifically only covered the two key works published at the time, Hobbit and LOTR. Everything else published since is the estate's to deal with, and Christopher Tolkien absolutely refused any further licensing or rights deals. His own son Simon is now the de facto head of the estate and they were willing to do the Amazon setup precisely because it gave them some space for negotiation themselves, as far as we can tell, but that was it, and none of the posthumous publications have had their rights sold, from The Silmarillion on. Until or unless that changes, anything further developed in this new deal has to essentially be, much like the Amazon series, invented fanfic, with vague head-nods towards canon as such.
BTW, the Mike De Luca mentioned in the Variety piece has his own history with New Line and WB. Frankly I'm not thrilled to see his name back here, per this 2011 piece. I remember when he was originally fired from New Line:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/confessions-mike-de-luca-161111/
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 23 February 2023 22:51 (one year ago) link
And a bit of further context to keep in mind -- there already is this film due next year, which was started some time back; this deal had nothing to do with it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_War_of_the_Rohirrim
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 23 February 2023 22:58 (one year ago) link
even the stage musical from the 2000s
the what now?
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Thursday, 23 February 2023 23:01 (one year ago) link
Enjoy our episode about it!
https://www.megaphonic.fm/bythebywater/16
Plenty of links and more info in the show notes there.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 23 February 2023 23:09 (one year ago) link
Anyway here's a concise overall rights explainer:
https://gizmodo.com/lord-of-the-rings-rights-explained-amazon-warner-bros-1850157744
― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 25 February 2023 22:52 (one year ago) link
this time they can get some important things RIGHT
* more bombadil* eagles carry the ring • "one does not simply walk into mordor" (three-seat tandem) • turning back roald dahl-style to the uncensored early texts, galadriel is a GNOME
― mark s, Saturday, 25 February 2023 23:12 (one year ago) link
New episode doncha know
https://www.megaphonic.fm/bythebywater/48
Plus news of our first live episode...
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 13 March 2023 16:25 (one year ago) link
Recording episode 49 this weekend -- but here's where to find us for episode 50!
https://www.megaphonic.fm/live-2023
Basically if you can make it to Portland on April 22...
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:43 (one year ago) link