daria's post upthread is excellent.
― estela, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 12:11 (nine years ago) link
in a world where you could repeal the 2nd amendment, you basically wouldn't need to repeal the 2nd amendment
― iatee, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 13:18 (nine years ago) link
― estela, Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:11 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
absolutely this.
we should not be focusing on the second amendment here. it's a side-issue, a canard. this is about how we cohere as a society, and how we enable destructive views to proliferate and gain momentum unchecked
― English cunt read Guardian (imago), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:02 (nine years ago) link
this is very much about the 2nd amendment, or (if you prefer) how or even if gun ownership proliferation can be checked. maybe I'm just a simpleton but I like to focus on laws and practicalities. if this guy had not been able to buy guns he *might* not have done what he did. that makes it about the law.
― goth colouring book (anagram), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:23 (nine years ago) link
part of the problem imo is ideological segregation. we live in neighborhoods + socialize w/ ppl who believe and think the same things as us. for good reason - bc it's pleasant to do so. but that means that affective communities can become totally closed systems w/ no outside input. it's not enough to be a stand for particular things in your already progressive, liberal community - stands need to be taken in uncomfortable places as well.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:23 (nine years ago) link
That's OTM, preaching to the choir is good at motivating the choir but not much else.
― zchyrs, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:24 (nine years ago) link
we should not be focusing on the second amendment here. it's a side-issue, a canard.
uh guns in america and the fact that this kid easily bought THREE legally purchased guns in not side issue
there are a lot of great discussions going on in this thread about misogyny and power dynamics and etc etc but gun control is incredibly important as an issue in the u.s.
― dollar rave club (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:24 (nine years ago) link
i feel that i do my part because i am an educator -- this is part of my job, to help to create a culture of understanding where before there were differences. most of my students are female. in each of my classes this semester, there was one male student. the young one (prob about 18-19?) was super cool, never made a big deal about being the only guy, was generally chill and earnest and a good student. the older one (who was either my age or a little older) walked in on the first day and was like "WHOA a class of ALL WOMEN" (a direct quotation) and by the end of the semester, he admitted that he was intimidated and overreacted. one step at a time, ppl.
i've got hope for the future, at least.
― funch dressing (La Lechera), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:31 (nine years ago) link
Gun control is actually pretty popular, its just that there's no well organized well funded single issue national lobbying organization to counter the nra. This is whats required.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:32 (nine years ago) link
that said, i would be really glad if there were no gunswe've been talking a lot about "campus security" (which sounds like $$$ to administrators) whereas we should really be talking about safety, which is a basic human right.
― funch dressing (La Lechera), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:34 (nine years ago) link
― iatee, Tuesday, May 27, 2014 9:18 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― anonanon, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:36 (nine years ago) link
nope the problem is that a. gun control actually isn't sufficiently popular b. our electoral system privileges rural interests
along w/ the bigger ideological gridlock problem which may or may not just be a short-term thing
bloomberg can spend as much money as the nra does or more. it won't do a thing.
― iatee, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:46 (nine years ago) link
also daria otm, esp about being talked over/not listened to/not taken seriously
― funch dressing (La Lechera), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 14:50 (nine years ago) link
Meanwhile, something's up with the spree shooting in Brussels on Saturday. Moving camera footage was released of an unrecognizable but clearly professional/trained shooter who calmly entered, took his machine gun, shot three people dead in the Jewish Museum in Brussels, and then calmly walked away again.
http://static1.hln.be/static/photo/2014/14/7/4/20140527164302/media_xll_6778264.jpg
Immediately, everyone (including Netanyahu, the Pope, the Belgian government, etc) attacked Europe's rising antisemitism that obviously must have caused this, but now it seems there may be more to the story. The two formerly innocent tourists who happened to be there by chance were both, Belgian media reports, based on a Haaretz article, linked to Israeli secret services. The woman worked for the Israeli prime minister and the husband was with her when they were in Berlin for "a mission" in the Israeli consulate.
― StanM, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 15:55 (nine years ago) link
Please link to the Haaretz report. The article I see says:
There was no practical reason for a hostile state like Iran or an enemy organization like Hezbollah to try and harm either Emanuel or Mira Riva – both former civil servants – at the Jewish Museum in Brussels. Both were accountants who were employed separately by government bodies. They had no substantive connection to the core issues of either Iran or Hezbollah; their tools were numbers and computers, not cloaks and daggers.
I don't see anything about them being on "a mission" in the Israeli consulate.
Haaretz is pretty fucking irresponsible tbh.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 15:59 (nine years ago) link
they still sound p innocent to me idk
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:00 (nine years ago) link
Haaretz publishes sensationalistic/speculative stuff all the time - when they're not actively publishing incorrect facts + information.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:01 (nine years ago) link
Okay, apologies - only read the Belgian news site's article which looks deliberately vague now, indeed.
― StanM, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:05 (nine years ago) link
Still, the shooter doesn't look like an amateur/crazy madman - maybe the victims were wrongly identified as targets or something?
― StanM, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:06 (nine years ago) link
He could very well be a professional killer. Hezbollah has executed (and planned) attacks on Israeli civilians in a variety of countries. The professionalism of the shooter doesn't necessarily indicate that the targets were anything but convenient.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:08 (nine years ago) link
The shooting reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Cyprus_terrorist_plot
In the months preceding the disruption of the terrorist plot in Cyprus, Hezbollah and Iran were implicated in terrorist attacks and plots against Israeli targets in Thailand, India, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Kenya.[1] On July 18, eleven days after Yaakoub was arrested, five Israeli tourists and a Bulgarian citizen were killed in a suicide bombing in Burgas, Bulgaria. The Bulgarian government implicated Hezbollah in the attack.[2]
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:09 (nine years ago) link
There may be a slight "move along, nothing to see here, everyone's safe, it's just secret spy stuff, you know what they're like" tone about the reporting here - before, it was all "(muslim?) terrorism - stay out of museums and jewish-themed places everywhere because we don't have a clue what's going on and everyone may be in danger".
― StanM, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:17 (nine years ago) link
Sounds like (some) Belgians find it hard to accept that something like this can happen there, so they're happy to grasp the "it was spy stuff all along, not anti-semitism" straw.
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:42 (nine years ago) link
i doubt anybody really knows exactly what happened yet
― display name changed. (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:49 (nine years ago) link
there have been more than enough egregious crimes in belgium over the years
strangely enough someone was arrested over the unsolved brabant massacres only a couple of weeks ago
http://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/detail_peut-on-dire-que-l-on-tient-l-un-des-tueurs-du-brabant?id=8270916
― Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:49 (nine years ago) link
yeah, i wouldn't suggest that i know exactly what happened. just that the facts of the case - 2 tourists that have done accounting for the israeli government being shot by a pro in a jewish museum in brussels - is not enough to responsibly speculate about spies + espionage.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 16:51 (nine years ago) link
This dude otm
http://m.washingtonpost.com/politics/father-of-victim-in-santa-barbara-shootings-to-politicians-i-dont-care-about-your-sympathy/2014/05/27/8a030d10-e5ad-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html?tid=HP_more
gonna go buy some postcards
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 18:10 (nine years ago) link
that guy otm.
― djenter the dragon? (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 18:13 (nine years ago) link
Those truth bombs hurt so much, because a bunch of fuckers in this country all but guarantee nothing will come of this. Fuckers in Congress, fuckers in and around every (mostly empty and scary) state in this fucked up country, fuckers who elect the former to office and the fuckers who vote for them.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 18:22 (nine years ago) link
I'm fairly confident that current makeup of cali legislature will pass something. And we already have the strictest gun laws in the country. This is well shy of the larger more important goal, obviously, but still.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 18:29 (nine years ago) link
xp so otm and inspiring
― the glimmer man (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 18:33 (nine years ago) link
I'm fairly confident that current makeup of cali legislature will pass something. And we already have the strictest gun laws in the country. This is well shy of the larger more important goal, obviously, but still.― Οὖτις, Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:29 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:29 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
they can pass something, but will it survive a court challenge is the question. look what happened in chicago.
also mr. martinez has a lot of courage and is very much otm.
― display name changed. (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:03 (nine years ago) link
Idk but lets find out.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:11 (nine years ago) link
^^^
― the glimmer man (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:19 (nine years ago) link
I've said it elsewhere, but there is nothing more disheartening than going to my kids' elementary school and seeing a gun decal in the window with a little slash through it. Because, you know, not allowing guns in an elementary school is the exception, not the rule, right? See also: bookstores, playgrounds, restaurants and dozens of other places I pass every single day that remind me that the world is full of horrible, selfish assholes.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:23 (nine years ago) link
joe the plumber: "your dead kids don't trump my constitutional rights"
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-ucsb-shooting-dead-kids
suck it libtards
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:24 (nine years ago) link
The most amazing thing about that is that those are his actual words.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:25 (nine years ago) link
ah, the has-been/clickfarm symbiosis economy at work
― goole, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:25 (nine years ago) link
dismissing rednecks doesn't make them go away. these are the thoughts of tens of millions of americans
I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now. But:
As harsh as this sounds - your dead kids don't trump my Constitutional rights.
Richard Martinez, whose son (Christopher) was among the murdered, choked back tears at a news conference, blaming politicians the next day: "The talk about gun rights. What about Chris' right to live?" Martinez said - and much more.
There are no critical words for a grieving father. He can say whatever he wants and blame whoever he'd like - it's okay by me. You can't take a step in his shoes - at least I can't.
But the words and images of Mr. Martinez blaming "the proliferation of guns", lobbyists, politicians, etc.; will be exploited by gun-grab extremists as are all tragedies involving gun violence and the mentally ill by the anti-Second Amendment Left.
As a father, husband and a man, it is my responsibility to protect my family. I will stand up for that right vehemently. Please believe me, as a father I share your grief and I will pray for you and your family, as I do whenever I hear about senseless tragedies such as this.
We still have the Right to Bear Arms and I intend to continue to speak out for that right, and against those who would restrict it - even in the face of this horrible incident by this sad and insane individual. I almost said "Obama Voter" but I'm waiting for it to be official.
I noticed the mainstream media have stopped the practice of immediately reporting the psycho maniac is a conservative Tea Party Republican Christian. Guess they're sick of having to hide being wrong every time when it comes out the whacko votes Democrat?
Mr. Martinez and anyone calling for more restrictions on American's rights need to back off and stop playing into the hands of the folks who merely capitalize on these horrific events for their own political ends.
They don't care about your family or your dead children at all. They sound like they do, whereas I sound uncaring and like I say, harsh. Don't be fooled - I care about your family and mine. The future of our very liberty lies in the balance of this fight.
In conclusion, I cannot begin to imagine the pain you are going through, having had your child taken away from you. However, any feelings you have toward my rights being taken away from me, lose those.
the right to misuse apostrophes shall not be infringed!
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:31 (nine years ago) link
I don't think he's called for the banning of guns, anyway
― the glimmer man (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:35 (nine years ago) link
any gun legislation will be sold as "the banning of guns" though of course
― the glimmer man (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:36 (nine years ago) link
They don't care about your family or your dead children at all. They sound like they do, whereas I sound uncaring and like I say, harsh. Don't be fooled - I care about your family and mine.
war is peace
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:39 (nine years ago) link
very tempted to tell Mr. Plumber exactly HOW he can have his precious guns, but that wouldn't be very productive.
― djenter the dragon? (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44 (nine years ago) link
Time to embrace gun-grab extremism. The other side already paints our position that way no matter what, might as well just go there.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:45 (nine years ago) link
xp: who knows, after nine months he might give birth to a beautiful baby butt-gun
― On-the-spot Dicespin (DJP), Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:46 (nine years ago) link
Trying to be more nuanced or compromising or whatever has obviously failed. Why concede their rhetorical point about the left having a hidden agenda? Be honest about our agenda, fuck the 2nd amendment, yes I am coming to take your guns away. Lets find out how useless they actually are against our cryptofascist police forces after all, the najority of whom strongly support gun control.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:49 (nine years ago) link
Tons of gun owners going out in death-by-cop infinitely preferable to dead innocent kids imo
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:50 (nine years ago) link
I don't think "the second amendment is more important than the lives of our children" is a v persuasive bit of phrasing
― ogmor, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 20:06 (nine years ago) link
no, it's sociopathic and bizarre. the 2nd amendment is a law and there are lots of laws that are stupid and have been repealed. it's not some unalienable right. WTF.
― akm, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 20:16 (nine years ago) link
my favorite part of Veep this season was when she told the finnish lady "the 2nd amendment is a problem" which, let's face it, it is.