Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

And just a few days later in IV, a student accidently discharges his pistol (one of 7, with 1000 rounds of ammo), almost hitting someone in the next apartment.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ucsb-student-fires-gun-accidentally-misses-neighbor-isla-vista-police-article-1.1809272

“Obviously, I’m very sorry about the whole thing,” he told The News. “It was a stupid mistake and I should have knew better."

if you don't know the past participle of "know" can we just take your guns away?

and if you think "poor timing" is the main cause for concern over your accidental discharge of a bullet through a neighboring apartment, can we never give them back?

TS: Elliot Rodger or Elliott Smith?

― i also enjoy in line skateing (spazzmatazz), Thursday, May 29, 2014 2:49 PM (15 minutes ago)

dude c'mon

Every time I see this thread up this high I just assume someone else has been shot. I guess eventually that will be true.

when i lived in a dorm, i was leaning against a wall while workers were installing a mount for a TV in the gym next door to my room & they drilled straight through the wall two inches from my head

i guess my point is don't use pistols or drills

when i lived in a dorm, i was leaning against a wall while workers were installing a mount for a TV in the gym next door to my room & they drilled straight through the wall two inches from my head

sell that idea to cronenberg before someone else does

they already did that on Friends

David Cronenberg directed an episode of Friends?

"The One with the Brood"

no, someone sold the same idea to Cronenberg, in an episode of Friends. xp

it was chandler iirc

We've discussed entitlement a lot on this thread, which is making me wonder where the line is between 'people who have a sense of entitlement they can and should get over', and 'people who are forced into expecting certain things because that's the way society trains us'?

Obviously Rodger falls very far on one side of this line, but more generally, where is that line (if it exists - is there no allowance for people who have been conditioned into a sense of entitlement or is this conditioning something a mature individual can be expected to break out of through will-power)

or is this conditioning something a mature individual can be expected to break out of through will-power

my knee-jerk reaction is to say the answer is this. straying into allowances for societal conditioning feels like "affluenza" as defense to me but maybe i am being overly critical

is there no allowance for people who have been conditioned into a sense of entitlement

that's exactly what entitlement is. and no, it is, for real, a big part of The Problem. but you can only not allow it in yourself and try to not w/ people you have a relationship with, in positive terms, by emphasizing active not-entitlement with people outside of your conditioned social milieu.

that's exactly what entitlement is

this

straying into allowances for societal conditioning feels like "affluenza" as defense to me but maybe i am being overly critical

I suppose I'd be ready to say that being angry because you didn't get given an expensive enough car for your 18th birthday (for example) is the kind of entitlement you can and should get over.

But what about someone (for example) who hates themselves because they think they 'ought' to be running their kids to school in a car at this point in their life, but can't afford a car and have to walk the kids instead?

I guess this latter example might not be entitlement proper though. Or a sense of entitlement is mingled with a sense of not doing enough for others, or with frustration at actual difficulties.

Rodger clearly felt, quite literally, 'entitled to sex' from women. As do a lot of men, there's so much evidence for this in testimonies from sexual abuse survivors.

Outside of abusers, though, and in the world of non-abusive but very unhappy people, I wonder how many men really feel 'entitled to sex', or in how many cases that phrase fails to take in the nuances (e.g. where anger at lack of sex is to do with a feeling of having betrayed one's family by not giving them grandchildren, or a feeling of not having matured properly).

I don't know, actually, and giving too much allowance here could be extremely dangerous.

is there no allowance for people who have been conditioned into a sense of entitlement

― cardamon, Thursday, May 29, 2014 2:47 PM (3 hours ago)

i suppose it depends on what you mean by "allowance". we're not obliged to furiously condemn every sign of unexamined entitlement, so in that sense, sure - we have the allowance dictated by our sense of compassion, proportion, necessity, appropriateness and so on. choose your battles, etc.

But what about someone (for example) who hates themselves because they think they 'ought' to be running their kids to school in a car at this point in their life, but can't afford a car and have to walk the kids instead?

I guess this latter example might not be entitlement proper though.

― cardamon, Thursday, May 29, 2014 3:28 PM (2 hours ago)

okay, i think i get where you're coming from now. and no, that isn't entitlement as i understand it. i'd call that a sense of inadequacy relative to unrealistic (perceived) social expectation.

if one felt that one's children fundamentally deserved chaufeurred limo service to an exclusive private school, then that would be entitlement.

also tho feeling entitled to material quality of life things is very sympathetic. feeling entitled to other humans' bodies is pretty sick.

The AP says the sheriff's deputies who evaluated UCSB killer Elliott Rodger during an April wellness check were well aware of his threatening YouTube videos but never bothered to actually watch them.

The sheriff's office told reporters an officer and officer-in-training were dispatched to Rodger's apartment after the county's mental health line called in a report that Rodger's mother and therapist were concerned by his online posts.

Police say he told the officers—who never actually watched the videos—that his uploads were just a way for him to express himself.

They questioned him for 10 minutes, found him to be shy and polite, and told him to call his mother. After the wellness check, he apparently removed the videos for fear he'd be discovered, reposting them shortly before the shooting began.

jfc

coughprivilegecough

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikehayes/thousands-of-surfers-honor-ucsb-victims-with-memorial-paddle

Outside of abusers, though, and in the world of non-abusive but very unhappy people, I wonder how many men really feel 'entitled to sex', or in how many cases that phrase fails to take in the nuances (e.g. where anger at lack of sex is to do with a feeling of having betrayed one's family by not giving them grandchildren, or a feeling of not having matured properly).

yeah i think a lot of men are just trying to find a scapegoat for their insecurity because they don't want to blame themselves for being unattractive anymore. but then, feeling bitter toward women doesn't bring them relief, it just ensnares them in an even more toxic cycle where they still think they are inadequate and also think they are victims, so now they are angry in addition to being depressed. what they should do instead is what everyone eventually has to learn to do, which is face disappointment with grace and dignity. not sure if/how you can teach people to do this though.

with all these shifting ideals of masculinity shit, makes me glad i got off the boat when i was a kid when i realized how stupid it all was. makes the transition to being an equitable and responsible human being all the easier.

I had to defriend an OKC dateperson because his bitterness against women was so radiant and repulsive. Wasn't a lack of sex thing tho - he was a good looking, charming guy - but he was bitter beyond words over the concept that women controlled everything Because Wombs.

This whole shooting and the #yesallwomen fallout has done something to me I didnt think'd happen - its kinda been triggering. I'm sinking with the realisation Ive dealt with this. More than once or twice. Being strangled. Being gaslighted. Being sexually assaulted. Being slapped. Being told after dumping a guy "you're very lucky I didnt drive my car into a tree last night". Those are All Different Men btw.

Jesus that's terrible

yeah i think a lot of men are just trying to find a scapegoat for their insecurity because they don't want to blame themselves for being unattractive anymore. but then, feeling bitter toward women doesn't bring them relief, it just ensnares them in an even more toxic cycle where they still think they are inadequate and also think they are victims, so now they are angry in addition to being depressed. what they should do instead is what everyone eventually has to learn to do, which is face disappointment with grace and dignity. not sure if/how you can teach people to do this though.

― Treeship, Friday, May 30, 2014

"toxic" may not be a strong enough word for these people, who are still there, now using other online forums.

I think they are guys caught in a toxic cycle of shame and resentment who turn to truly evil communities and ideas for validation and support. In another world many of these guys could have learned better, more constructive ways of dealing with loneliness and frustration. That's why the hate speech needs to be combated. These ideas and attitudes are not an inevitable reaction to rejection.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ similar things drive a lot of scared, resentful people into far-right/militia-type groups.

the "not all men" backlash has been repulsive (why so defensive?), but what's pissed me off more than that is the "we should take a closer look at SSRIs, maybe they're not safe!" reactions, or those who toss off the "wow this proves mental illness needs addressing".

Not because it's not true, but because the only time anybody seems to give a shit about the mentally ill is after a tragedy, when it is time to assess blame for the incident at hand. The NRA suddenly became mental health advocates when they were in the crosshairs for Sandy Hook. It's all a means of deflection.

The SSRI thing also infuriates me. I take them, so maybe I'm sensitive to it, but the public witchhunt against 'mind altering medication' often leads people who need them to stay away from them. Granted, there are some folk who are on meds that should not be, are on the wrong meds, aren't pairing their meds with therapy (often because it's too expensive, which I'm totally sympathetic to), or other situations that aren't healthy...but they do help out a lot of folks as well.

Yesterday some guy was arguing with me that we need to take another look at the safety of SSRIs because "they list side effects like suicidal thoughts!!!!". I'm all for more studies, but plenty have been done, and while there's not a lot of conclusiveness, indications are that increased SSRI use and decreased suicide rates are linked. frustrated me cos conversations like this often lead folks who should be on meds not to use them and seek some alternative ('homeopathic') remedies.

trayce, i don't think i can say anything that is even close to adequate but i'm very sorry you have suffered such cruel, abusive, horrible bullshit.

"toxic" may not be a strong enough word for these people, who are still there, now using other online forums.

― Daniel, Esq 2, Friday, May 30, 2014 9:26 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think they are guys caught in a toxic cycle of shame and resentment who turn to truly evil communities and ideas for validation and support. In another world many of these guys could have learned better, more constructive ways of dealing with loneliness and frustration. That's why the hate speech needs to be combated. These ideas and attitudes are not an inevitable reaction to rejection.

― Treeship, Friday, May 30, 2014 9:45 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

from what i've seen these sneering bullies are not hurt, they are enraged because their minions are not behaving properly. they are not 'turning to truly evil communities,' they comprise them, they think women are of a lower order and only here to suckle, soothe and service them. they are furious about women not fulfilling their vision. the world doesn't need to nurture them into better self-esteem, they already esteem themselves too highly, they are selfish and cruel and vain. it's notable that none of them seem the slightest bit sad about all the untapped love they have to give, instead they are obsessed with what they're not getting from their perceived inferiors.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah good points. They are cruel and selfish bullies who hate women and feel no responsibilities to others, no doubt. I'm just trying to understand why they decide to become like that.

But yeah I guess it's the entitlement that sets the stage for the rage when people don't fulfill their expectations. By focusing on their unhappiness -- and they do seem like a miserable fucking lot, nothing is more toxic to the psyche than hatred -- I am getting the causality backwards.

Yeah good points. They are cruel and selfish bullies who hate women and feel no responsibilities to others, no doubt. I'm just trying to understand why they decide to become like that.

selfishness, immaturity, generally being assholes

the world doesn't need to nurture them into better self-esteem, they already esteem themselves too highly

so otm

DJP otm

really the psychology aspect interests me not at all tbh. you can't pass laws to fix that. you can pass laws about guns though.

fucking amazing estela post which I'm gonna c & p into my archives

damn. great post.

https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/the-ultimate-humiliation/

Likewise, in My Twisted World, Rodger is assigned a female social worker he finds attractive. He enjoys his time with her, but the rare pleasant mood is ruined when he realizes that, because she has been hired to hang with him, “it’s like going to a prostitute. It feels good for a while, but afterward, you just feel pathetic.” The thought of paying for sex isn’t the rub; he has the funds, after all. What enrages him is the thought of other men not paying for sex.

So much male jealousy, competition, and ensuing bitterness springs from this one funny fact—that they think any kind of love comes for free. That there is ever a time when even sex qua sex don’t cost a thing. Money or no money, the rest of us know we have to pay.

You could say the trouble for Rodger started when, around puberty, he began to know—and, in writing, recite—the first and last names of every boy he considered a sexual competitor, while at the same time referring to girls almost always collectively. Girls. Pretty girls. Pretty blond girls. Only three girls (or perhaps, by this time, women) are listed by name in My Twisted World, vis-a-vis dozens of boys (I’m not including family members). By the end of his writing and life, he’s failed to distinguish between any groups of humans at all, to the point where he considers his 6-year-old brother yet another budding Romeo who, because “he will grow up enjoying the life [Rodger has] craved for,” must die. “Girls will love him,” Rodger says. “He will become one of my enemies.” Rodger begs our most individuating question—“why don’t you love me?”—by proving himself repeatedly unable to individuate another.

i read the whole manifesto (whyyy) and got the impression that he was angry not really because he couldn't get a girlfriend and have sex but the fact that other, 'lesser' people are enjoying their lives more than him. he thinks of himself as some kind of aristocrat and is completely horrified by anyone of what he views as an inferior race or class having success with girls (who are of course regarded as sub-human). his feeling of being outcast are initially not very different to a lot of teenage boys but he seems to get consumed by his anxieties due to a toxic combination of sense of entitlement, misogyny and a lack of empathy.

one other thing is that his sense of entitlement definitely extended beyond 'nice guys finish last' textbook geek misogyny. was something much deeper

if he had been successful with women, he would have loathed them just as much for lapping up his lame act. He was a narcissistic sociopath who never learned how to pretend to be human. Like all sociopaths, the only real emotions they can feel are rage and envy.

i browsed the memoir, one of the craziest fucking things is that he never even mentions approaching a girl, talking to a girl, asking a girl out on a date. the closest he gets is smiling at some girl walking by and then shitting on the world because the girl didn't talk to him. it's just this relentless, thick, hateful expectation that sex should just come to him

xp otm