Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

yeah i think a lot of men are just trying to find a scapegoat for their insecurity because they don't want to blame themselves for being unattractive anymore. but then, feeling bitter toward women doesn't bring them relief, it just ensnares them in an even more toxic cycle where they still think they are inadequate and also think they are victims, so now they are angry in addition to being depressed. what they should do instead is what everyone eventually has to learn to do, which is face disappointment with grace and dignity. not sure if/how you can teach people to do this though.

― Treeship, Friday, May 30, 2014

"toxic" may not be a strong enough word for these people, who are still there, now using other online forums.

I think they are guys caught in a toxic cycle of shame and resentment who turn to truly evil communities and ideas for validation and support. In another world many of these guys could have learned better, more constructive ways of dealing with loneliness and frustration. That's why the hate speech needs to be combated. These ideas and attitudes are not an inevitable reaction to rejection.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ similar things drive a lot of scared, resentful people into far-right/militia-type groups.

the "not all men" backlash has been repulsive (why so defensive?), but what's pissed me off more than that is the "we should take a closer look at SSRIs, maybe they're not safe!" reactions, or those who toss off the "wow this proves mental illness needs addressing".

Not because it's not true, but because the only time anybody seems to give a shit about the mentally ill is after a tragedy, when it is time to assess blame for the incident at hand. The NRA suddenly became mental health advocates when they were in the crosshairs for Sandy Hook. It's all a means of deflection.

The SSRI thing also infuriates me. I take them, so maybe I'm sensitive to it, but the public witchhunt against 'mind altering medication' often leads people who need them to stay away from them. Granted, there are some folk who are on meds that should not be, are on the wrong meds, aren't pairing their meds with therapy (often because it's too expensive, which I'm totally sympathetic to), or other situations that aren't healthy...but they do help out a lot of folks as well.

Yesterday some guy was arguing with me that we need to take another look at the safety of SSRIs because "they list side effects like suicidal thoughts!!!!". I'm all for more studies, but plenty have been done, and while there's not a lot of conclusiveness, indications are that increased SSRI use and decreased suicide rates are linked. frustrated me cos conversations like this often lead folks who should be on meds not to use them and seek some alternative ('homeopathic') remedies.

trayce, i don't think i can say anything that is even close to adequate but i'm very sorry you have suffered such cruel, abusive, horrible bullshit.

"toxic" may not be a strong enough word for these people, who are still there, now using other online forums.

― Daniel, Esq 2, Friday, May 30, 2014 9:26 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think they are guys caught in a toxic cycle of shame and resentment who turn to truly evil communities and ideas for validation and support. In another world many of these guys could have learned better, more constructive ways of dealing with loneliness and frustration. That's why the hate speech needs to be combated. These ideas and attitudes are not an inevitable reaction to rejection.

― Treeship, Friday, May 30, 2014 9:45 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

from what i've seen these sneering bullies are not hurt, they are enraged because their minions are not behaving properly. they are not 'turning to truly evil communities,' they comprise them, they think women are of a lower order and only here to suckle, soothe and service them. they are furious about women not fulfilling their vision. the world doesn't need to nurture them into better self-esteem, they already esteem themselves too highly, they are selfish and cruel and vain. it's notable that none of them seem the slightest bit sad about all the untapped love they have to give, instead they are obsessed with what they're not getting from their perceived inferiors.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah good points. They are cruel and selfish bullies who hate women and feel no responsibilities to others, no doubt. I'm just trying to understand why they decide to become like that.

But yeah I guess it's the entitlement that sets the stage for the rage when people don't fulfill their expectations. By focusing on their unhappiness -- and they do seem like a miserable fucking lot, nothing is more toxic to the psyche than hatred -- I am getting the causality backwards.

Yeah good points. They are cruel and selfish bullies who hate women and feel no responsibilities to others, no doubt. I'm just trying to understand why they decide to become like that.

selfishness, immaturity, generally being assholes

the world doesn't need to nurture them into better self-esteem, they already esteem themselves too highly

so otm

DJP otm

really the psychology aspect interests me not at all tbh. you can't pass laws to fix that. you can pass laws about guns though.

fucking amazing estela post which I'm gonna c & p into my archives

damn. great post.

https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/the-ultimate-humiliation/

Likewise, in My Twisted World, Rodger is assigned a female social worker he finds attractive. He enjoys his time with her, but the rare pleasant mood is ruined when he realizes that, because she has been hired to hang with him, “it’s like going to a prostitute. It feels good for a while, but afterward, you just feel pathetic.” The thought of paying for sex isn’t the rub; he has the funds, after all. What enrages him is the thought of other men not paying for sex.

So much male jealousy, competition, and ensuing bitterness springs from this one funny fact—that they think any kind of love comes for free. That there is ever a time when even sex qua sex don’t cost a thing. Money or no money, the rest of us know we have to pay.

You could say the trouble for Rodger started when, around puberty, he began to know—and, in writing, recite—the first and last names of every boy he considered a sexual competitor, while at the same time referring to girls almost always collectively. Girls. Pretty girls. Pretty blond girls. Only three girls (or perhaps, by this time, women) are listed by name in My Twisted World, vis-a-vis dozens of boys (I’m not including family members). By the end of his writing and life, he’s failed to distinguish between any groups of humans at all, to the point where he considers his 6-year-old brother yet another budding Romeo who, because “he will grow up enjoying the life [Rodger has] craved for,” must die. “Girls will love him,” Rodger says. “He will become one of my enemies.” Rodger begs our most individuating question—“why don’t you love me?”—by proving himself repeatedly unable to individuate another.

i read the whole manifesto (whyyy) and got the impression that he was angry not really because he couldn't get a girlfriend and have sex but the fact that other, 'lesser' people are enjoying their lives more than him. he thinks of himself as some kind of aristocrat and is completely horrified by anyone of what he views as an inferior race or class having success with girls (who are of course regarded as sub-human). his feeling of being outcast are initially not very different to a lot of teenage boys but he seems to get consumed by his anxieties due to a toxic combination of sense of entitlement, misogyny and a lack of empathy.

one other thing is that his sense of entitlement definitely extended beyond 'nice guys finish last' textbook geek misogyny. was something much deeper

if he had been successful with women, he would have loathed them just as much for lapping up his lame act. He was a narcissistic sociopath who never learned how to pretend to be human. Like all sociopaths, the only real emotions they can feel are rage and envy.

i browsed the memoir, one of the craziest fucking things is that he never even mentions approaching a girl, talking to a girl, asking a girl out on a date. the closest he gets is smiling at some girl walking by and then shitting on the world because the girl didn't talk to him. it's just this relentless, thick, hateful expectation that sex should just come to him

xp otm

yeah i guess it goes without saying he didn't have any genuine interest in girls as humans. he just thought his (extremely comfortable) life was ruined by the fact that other people were able to have sex and he wasn't.

have avoided posting it since this happened but the first thing i thought of when i skimmed the text was that "what about uncharismatic sociopaths?" thread

i think rodger was so far gone tbh that even if he'd been befriended a week before the shootings by some super understanding and helpful dudes and had a few months later met a nice girl who fulfilled what he sought, as soon as something happened, the seas got a bit choppy or there was an argument or breakup, he'd slide back to square one probably raging even harder.

yea

apologies if this was already posted but...

http://i.imgur.com/xW8pKkC.jpg

dude, I just remembered that deathdr0ne guy

like he wasn't one of those sad bastard guys who needed a confidence boost and a new philosophy or outlook and a simple shift towards more empathy, which i think a lot of normal types of guys require along the way. xpost obv, jesus h christ.

i'm not going to read that xxp

I'm just going to imagine Estala's post is there instead of that, yuck

tpp respect but i think a lot of people itt have mentioned deliberately avoiding reading the book in order to avoid shit like that, that excerpt might not belong here

Was this guy's purpose to make Varg look quaint and rogueish?

all these guys end up at fascism eventually.

trained troops, absolute power, purity.

revenge of the strong against the oppression of the weak.

sorry for posting that - can a mod pls remove

I'm a UCSB alumni, lived in Isla Vista for 4 years, it's very difficult to describe that place to people. Half-square mile with the campus on one side, the ocean on another, and about a good mile of flats before you reach the next town over; downtown Santa Barbara is actually about 10 miles down the road. About 75% of Isla Vistas population are the transient students, and the longer term residents aren't exactly normal either; it's a densely populated 'city' with almost no adult supervision. It's basically a year round Bacchanale, and everything you've heard about Halloween is true. I had almost no consciousness of Feminism before college, but basically all of my female friends who went through Isla Vista ended up pretty radicalized by the experience. My own reaction upon learning about this guy last weekend was going through my own memories of that particular town and thinking 'of course'.

Alumni are passing around this link on Facebook by an old (totally righteous and awesome) acquaintance of mine and it is worth reading for more context about this town.

http://dailynexus.com/2014-05-30/a-forgotten-critical-feminist-history-at-ucsb-and-why-its-still-important/

Excerpt is basically the plot of

https://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-400/0111-1/bd7/a77/03/%7Bbd7a7703-708d-4f48-9ff1-f1f94769bee8%7DImg400.jpg

good read MP, thanks

i haven't fully digested these yet. from very different bases, sarah nicole prickett and elizabeth stoker consider male humiliation:

http://elizabethstoker.com/2014/05/29/inequality-violence-media-solutions/

https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/the-ultimate-humiliation/

this whole story should hopefully cause people to examine their own beliefs (obviously lots of men have and will be defensive, but those that aren't so kneejerk might at least appreciate some perspective).

what bothers me about this story is that it hits close to home in a way. while I obviously wasn't completely off the rails like this guy, some of the thoughts and feelings I had towards women in my late teens and early 20s weren't much more than a stone's throw away from this guy's. Of course, there was no chance of me committing any such crime, but nonetheless, said beliefs weren't healthy for me or the people around me. it took a lot of self-examination and acknowledgment of there being a problem with my worldview before that changed.

― getting strange ass all around the globe (Neanderthal), Friday, May 30, 2014 6:06 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

Nhex wrote this on thread i know i'm one of the only people on ilx who watches *how i met your mother* on a regular basis, but did anyone else see the robin sparkles episode? where robin didn't want people to know that she had on board I Love Everything on Apr 9, 2014

She was probably getting strange ass all around the globe, but I don't know if we needed to see that

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/30/1303118/-Dear-Men-STFU#

nothing too introspective here but I'm 100% down with the sentiment

This is a really harrowing read http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301/all

yeah, i read that. that pua-hate crowd is unbelievable.

So much male jealousy, competition, and ensuing bitterness springs from this one funny fact—that they think any kind of love comes for free. That there is ever a time when even sex qua sex don’t cost a thing. Money or no money, the rest of us know we have to pay.

another part of this story is how much hate -- and awe, or maybe something else -- rodger had for "alpha males." there's a lot going on there, about how humiliated he felt compared to loud, outgoing, aggressive, domineering, hyper-masculine men.

life is a game, there is nothing except winning, to lose is not to exist

i should be winning but i am not

whose fault is it?

your mom's

her and her dark ilk

lol honored to be quoted in a dn

puahate was 95% trolls and 5% BDD ridden young adult males who took it all too seriously. in that way, it was kinda a perfect satire of the manosphere and its woes.