People Who Live In Suburbs: Classy, Icky, or Dudes?

*is functionally a suburb

This isn't a city. This is a stain left over after someone threw a tomato at a map of Ohio.

http://i.imgur.com/zekZydO.png

And don't forget Columbus' Congressional districts:

http://i.imgur.com/rNVjQmO.png

Not classy or icky. Maybe some are dudes. Most of all, I think, they are enthusiasts. I may be imagining that American suburbs are equivalent to the normal populace in smaller countries such as Belgium or France or Korea where young people can get caught up in things and older people go bowling. But listening to Seamonsters and remembering Steve Albini, I can't help wondering what happened to the Smashing Pumpkins when everybody still loves the Wedding Present. (Oh, I thought he produced one of their albums, but it appears that he merely criticized them. Then which top nineties album did he produce (other than Seamonsters)?)

I think of Columbus as a small city because it is gritty at the core. (Maybe I am not properly recognizing the surrounding areas that are really a part of it. The Twenty-Seventh City by Franzen may be relevant. But, yes, the people still seemed suburban in their preoccupations ... )

That Warstler guy is an idiot. He's a regular commenter on Scott Sumner's blog, where I quickly learned to ignore him.

― o. nate, Tuesday, March 6, 2012 1:42 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

stories i came across recently of interest to almost nobody:

http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/deep-stealth-rick-perry-opening-doors-for-firm-see/nnyPb/
http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/rick-perrys-work-for-govwhiz-doesnt-pass-smell-tes/nny5b/

"megalomaniac twitter troll runs scammy non-company with ties to rick perry"

(funny he was discussed here 3 years ago. lol yglesias)

a ridiculous tale of the special hell that is homeowners associations
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/in-a-community-of-million-dollar-homes-a-fight-over-a-500-mailbox-ends-in-court/2017/01/23/1adbdb88-e186-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html

Sometimes lately I have this recurring thought that I'm a bit shamed of -- "Fuck this place, we should just move to the suburbs." Part of it is definitely having a baby on a way, which seems so predictable in a way that I never thought would happen to me. But I also just get sick of the crush, the ugliness, the encroached feeling. I think the suburb I have in my mind's eye isn't really like a real suburb though.

― Helping 3 (Hurting 2), Saturday, September 3, 2011 11:47 PM (eight years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ok so I'm not imagining things with hindsight, I really have been feeling this way for a long time

In the early days of “Shelter in Place”, I experienced a bit of longing for the ‘burbs. Like you said, it’s probably more of an idealistic version that doesn’t really exist.

It was mostly the lack of traffic on our neighborhood streets. Being able to skateboard down the middle of streets typically full of impatient drivers. Going to big empty parking lots that would normally be bustling on a weekday.

I have also been pining for a proper house with space for a home office and a place to put exercise equipment.

I moved a bit as a kid, and always lived in older neighborhoods close to big cities, but I never actually lived in the kind of development suburbs that people generally think of.

i tell you what it has been pretty great living in a suburban area in a state with low covid numbers through all of this. like i can just go for a run outside and see no one and it's fine.

Ok so I'm not imagining things with hindsight, I really have been feeling this way for a long time

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, May 20, 2020 5:53 AM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol not to be rude but i've thought of you as "the new york guy who wants to live in the burbs" for as long as i can remember

There is a bit - I repeat, a BIT - of potential posturing in stuff like "not a real suburb" / "the kind of development suburbs that people generally think of".

And I hasten to note that don't excuse myself from the accusation.

Lots of people who don't live inside what some regard as "city limits" are quick to note that their suburb isn't one of THOSE suburbs, you know, the soulless ones. Hey, we have public transport, density, diversity, walkability, sidewalks, local restaurants, quaint shopping, community spirit, architectural variety, nightlife, etc.

It's only the OTHER suburbs that suck. You know, those ones that are always just a bit further out - the ones with sprawl, homogeneity, cookie-cutter houses, strip malls, chain restaurants, nothing but PTA meetings and youth soccer, etc.

I love where I live, but I am as guilty as anyone in this. People living downtown - or slightly closer to downtown - think I've sold out and might as well be in bumfuck Iowa. I probably think the same of people living slightly further out.

I hate the suburbs here, even worse than the suburbs of Glasgow I grew up in (at least those place were old, not completely built with cars in mind) but would possibly move there in order to live somewhere bigger. only in the Metro Vancouver area property (including rental) is really expensive, even in the shittiest, far-flungest 'burb.

Lots of people who don't live inside what some regard as "city limits" are quick to note that their suburb isn't one of THOSE suburbs, you know, the soulless ones.

I'm the opposite, I live quite close to downtown in a medium-sized city but I would never deny that the landscape I live in is suburban; it is suburban! It is single-family houses with driveways and lawns, almost 100% owner-occupied, I drive a station wagon which I take to the mall (or do when there's no pandemic), etc. The fact that I can walk to a locally owned coffee shop and pizza place doesn't make it not suburban. The fact that it is in fact in the inner section of city doesn't make it not suburban. It's suburban! Most cities are, once you get a little away from the downtown core.

it's true tho not all suburbs are the same. lots of different kinds of places in between rural and urban.

eephus and Mordy, right! In my area, there are loads of places where a single-family house with a yard and driveway (with a minivan in it) is within city limits but the virtually identical house across the street is in a suburb. It's a mushy area.

But the binary is real in many people's heads; these people will sneer at you over their locally-owned coffee and defend their status as urbanites, etc. over a block-long accident of geography rather than admit that it is mushy.

Theory: "Proximity to the city" as an indicator of "cosmopolitan/livable" was already in decline 20 years ago. Rather than a majority of commutes being burb-to-city, a majority of commutes became burb-to-another-burb. Also, the close-in "streetcar suburbs" (not too car-dependent, walkable, transit-friendly, diverse) have urbanized quite a bit.

So our old friend, the narcissism of small differences, creeps in.

I am wondering if the post-COVID atmosphere (presumably more friendly to telework) will continue to erode the distinction.

i've been seeing a bunch of memes that are all about hoping that the gentrifying white collar workers will migrate back to the suburbs / mid-west / places-that-aren't-our-cool-cities as a result of covid and post-covid allowances for remote work.

Yes, how dare uncool people try to live near us in our havens of coolness

they drive up the rents and housing costs and complain about things and tend to be BBQ Beckys?

as in literally -- BBQ Becky was one of those ppl in my city

i'm a cool person who doesn't want to be downtown and is liking the suburbs. oh wait i'm a burnout. certain older suburbs are great for burnouts.

Seconding sarahell's point, speaking as a gentrifier but one with 20 years in NYC. Idk what that makes us longer term transplants.

suburbs are really uncool though it's true. i find it kind of bracing.

the city of Seattle is suburban enough within itself, if all the wealthy knowledge worker types (other than me) flee to the actual suburbs maybe I'll be able to buy a townhouse within the like 1 square mile of the city I want to live in sometime.

speaking as a gentrifier but one with 20 years in NYC. Idk what that makes us longer term transplants.

yeah -- it's tricky for me -- 22 years in the city, but not from there. and the people circulating the memes are a mix of people who are from the cities they live in, as well as longer term transplants, and uh, less longer term transplants, but not as recent as the people they are complaining about, but they, at least, tend to work in service sector jobs as opposed to "the bad people" who work for tech companies.

if i grew up in the suburbs and work a customer service job at a tech company, what city should i move to & gentrify

TS: moving into a ridiculous new apartment in a gentrifying city vs. moving into a ridiculous new mcmansion right next to a fading "historic downtown" out in the sticks

not all suburbs are the same

P unconvinced of this

if i grew up in the suburbs and work a customer service job at a tech company, what city should i move to & gentrify

― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Thursday, May 28, 2020 6:38 PM (forty-three minutes ago)

are u asking for a friend?

taking sides: criticizing ppl for moving out of cities vs. criticizing ppl for not moving out of cities

vs. criticizing ppl for moving into cities

aka "these people do not honor the care and thought I have put into the choices I have made for myself by emulating me and making all the same choices I have made or would make if I were them, therefore they are reprehensible".

lol @ the idea that most people have all these choices about where they live

Ok so I'm not imagining things with hindsight, I really have been feeling this way for a long time
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, May 20, 2020 5:53 AM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol not to be rude but i've thought of you as "the new york guy who wants to live in the burbs" for as long as i can remember

― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Thursday, May 28, 2020 2:05 PM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Not at all. This pleases me.

FWIW, we are making my dream come true, at least sort of -- we signed a lease on a rental house that is basically in the downtown of a suburb but has a bit of a yard. Got tired of competing with all-cash buyers fleeing the pandemic and settled for that.

but are you keeping your NYC place

vs. criticizing ppl for moving into cities

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, May 29, 2020 3:13 AM (ten hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

aka "these people do not honor the care and thought I have put into the choices I have made for myself by emulating me and making all the same choices I have made or would make if I were them, therefore they are reprehensible".

― A is for (Aimless), Friday, May 29, 2020 3:21 AM (ten hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is complicated and my thoughts on it are not settled. Cities represent opportunities that ppl feel they don't have where they are. Sometimes that's concretely real, esp as rural areas lose services and watch their economies collapse. Sometimes it's for cachet/excitement/habit ("everyone moves to New York for college/after college"), which is also a kind of opportunity but that person had other choices that would have still moved them forward.

When ppl who aren't from here move here (including myself!) it allows employers to outsource the development of the labor pool to communities and systems that they don't have to support. If employers had to hire from WITHIN the NYC-born population, they'd have to invest way more in the systems & infrastructure, schools, communities, wellness, to have an employable population to do the work that makes their profits. Instead, the desirability and appeal of the city to outsiders allows whole labor markets to skim off the best of what comes from elsewhere in some kind of resource extraction/lack of resource development scheme.

Now. Is it reasonable for people to stay where they're born, forever? Obviously not. People have always moved for opportunities, we're naturally migratory! (Which is also part of why national borders are bullshit but I digress.)

.................... Somewhere in the middle are a lot more thoughts about redlining, racism being baked into absolutely everything, white gentrifiers moving into Black communities and then hoarding all the quality of life power and criminalizing Black people, economic advantages ie kids whose parents pay for them to live however they want and look at the rest of the community like it's a fishbowl that they don't swim in while taking away residential space for someone FROM that community......I have a lot of thoughts.

In short it's not NECESSARILY the fault of white gentrifiers that their choices cause or abet the suffering of others but also it totally can be their fault, but thirdly we should NEVER allow structural systems off the hook OR CORPORATIONS OR GOVERNMENTS OR RACISM.

but are you keeping your NYC place

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, May 29, 2020 7:48 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

No selling

You want it?

As far as people moving here, the entire city is built on the principle of people moving here for work, from all parts of the country, all parts of the world, and all socioeconomic strata. And that's pretty much true of any major city anywhere in the world, they are built on mobility, they are the opposite of stable. Urbanization came along with industrialization, the great force that uprooted feudal society and scattered people across their countries, continents and the globe.

I want to go on record as opposing redlining, gentrification, displacement of local people/culture, and BBQ Beckys.

At the same time, there's a long tradition of criticizing the white/wealthy/knowledge worker types for moving out of cities and into burbs (white flight etc.). There is also a long tradition of criticizing them for moving into cities and making them suck. And now we hear there is a hope that those who have moved in will move out. And once they have moved out, they will be criticized for living in suburbs, and being suburban. With all the suckiness that entails - how dare they drive cars, have lawns, etc.

Seems a little bit damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't. Like there is no acceptable way for these people to live.

they'll be okay

Yeah I have felt for a while like the left take on “gentrification” has been a little incoherent. The real issue is wealth inequality. Recent NYC left politics focusing more on rent and tenant rights seems like a big step in the right direction.

it's shitty when people who work in a city can't live in that city. I have no idea how that works out in NYC or other major US cities. In France social housing policy aims to move people into affordable housing near where they work, using in the formula for eligibility and for your place in the queue the distance of your commute. But that's true for people who work in suburbs too. You're not going to get an apartment in Paris if you work in Clichy, say.

People shouldn't drive cars or have lawns, that part is correct.

I feel the no lawns thing, but every time I see those russian palace houses in forest hills with the all-stone yards, I get a little sad. Def want to learn about other lawn alternatives.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWnWaTVUYAMi4Bh?format=jpg&name=large

The alternatives are literally every other native perennial and your choice of decorative/useful annuals!

lol

I guess I assumed there weren't as many *playable* alternatives, but I see they have stuff on there about alternative grasses, so I will def look into that for whenever we finally buy

Clover