This is the thread where we judge other people's parenting

a billybobproduct, no less.

We briefly tried a leash with Beeps. She'd do this thing where she'd run and then jump like she's taking off, forcing me to raise up the leash and have her fly past the pavement within inches, like Tom Cruise in that Mission Impossible movie.

carl xp - got it, i just didn't read it well enough, my error.

― marcos, Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:54 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Equally likely that I didn't communicate it very well initially. I've been staying up way too late working lately and I've got mashed potato brains today.

xp holy shit good parenting reflexes!

We haven't got Abby's pacifier out of her mouth. It's a source of conflict between my wife and I. A doctor told us once* that it was okay to let her keep it until she was 4 or 5 and that it may help her breathing, in light of some problems she has with sleep apnea. I view it as reasonable to keep the binkie in at night like a mouthguard. My wife just lets her keep it in all day, which irritates me.

*doctors say ALL KINDS of shit, don't they?

BEEPS

Yeah, that move's awesome. I love action kids.

I'm against physical punishment for kids but singling out certain parenting behaviors (as long as they don't actually pose a serious threat to the child's safety/health) as especially taboo bothers me a lot, and it seems like there's this particular liberal taboo about physical things that I find out of proportion, considering all of the non-physical ways one can seriously harm a child emotionally. In other words, light spanking is something I'm choosing not to do, and that I would encourage others not to do, but it's also something I don't think we should get to the point of legislating against, demonizing parents for, etc. Inconsistent or arbitrary non-physical punishment is going to harm a child a lot more than occasional, controlled, fairly applied physical punishment imo. And getting on the soapbox about these easy, bright line rules is a nice way of avoiding the complexities of good parenting, which is really about a lot more than just not doing these five harmful things.

I was spanked as a kid (between the ages of I dunno, probably 4 and 8 or so?) and never really felt damaged by it or unfairly punished or whatever. My wife, on the other hand, suffered way more serious physical/psychological abuse from her mom and is horrified at the thought of inflicting any similar damage on our children so there's no spanking in our house. Fine with me, whatever. Veronica doesn't get so insanely out of hand that spanking her would do any "good" anyway so it doesn't even really occur to me as an option.

I was also spanked a few times and I find it hard to believe that they have any special significance in my overall childhood. Much worse were times when my dad merely yelled but seemed out of control angry.

And even those, I don't think they were some kind of defining trauma in my life. There are overall things my parents didn't do that I think made a much bigger difference to me than specific momentary things like that that they did do.

Physical punishment should absolutely be legislated against. Yes, you can do bad things to your kids mentally with non-physical punishment, but that doesn't mean that "occasional, controlled, fairly applied" physical punishment is OK, under any circumstance. What is often the case is the spankers are doing the bad shit mentally anyway. Just the threat of violence will fuck with you mentally as a kid. It's goddamn barbaric.

I don't think there's any problem w a kid that is made better by physical punishment of any kind tbh.

I'm not saying it makes physical punishment "OK", I'm saying that parenting is a messy process in which lots of bad things inevitably get done even by well-intentioned parents and we can't be legislating against all of them, that the harm of getting overly involved in people's parenting will outweigh the good while not actually making the parents better parents.

That's such a bizarre argument.

My mother was a counselor (dealt with really fucked-up parents, etc.), and her attitude was that she understood that sometimes a parent could "break" and smack a kid, and she didn't condemn them for that. What she did not go in for was mechanized, routine spankings. Not sure if this was a totally justifiable viewpoint, but it makes sense to me, to some extent. However, seems like the less you can let your kid know that they can "break" you, the better.

That's such a bizarre argument.

― Jeff, Thursday, September 18, 2014 12:22 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
It's not bizarre at all if you have any experience with the interaction between mandated reporters, child welfare services, the legal system, and poor parents

^^

Marriages can be a messy process in which lots of bad things inevitably get done even by well-intentioned spouses. So we shouldn't stop men from smacking their wives around, because it would be getting overly involved in their lives and will outweigh the good while not actually making him a better husband.

yeah I'm with Hurting here

And I say that even having seen that, in some cases, reporting and getting social services involved did a lot of good, so I'm not saying never involve the state in parenting. At least in the Bloomberg era and on, NYC child welfare services seems pretty well run to me and does not jump to easy conclusions. But the times I'm talking about involved pretty severe conduct -- severe physical abuse, severe neglect, or sexual abuse.

oh good we're at the unhelpful analogies stage of the argument

xp

Sure, there is something compelling about the argument "we don't accept assault on an adult, why is it ever ok on a child?" And the answer is "It isn't, but what do you do about it? Fine the parent? Jail them? Take away the child? What do you do with the child?" An adult woman can decide whether to press charges, whether to leave, and if she leaves is at least theoretically capable of living on her own without the spouse, none of which is true for a child. My dad once punched me on the shoulder and left a huge bruise, in a shopping mall. It wouldn't have done me a shred of good if police stepped in.

BTW I retaliated by kicking him in the ass really hard as we were leaving.

I think the thing is that the damage done to a kid by taking them away from their parents (especially given our current child welfare system) is usually worse than whatever their parents are up to.

Yeah, and the good thing in NYC at least is that my impression is they are very hesitant to take away the kids, and that there are other a lot of intervention steps that come first.

this thread took a turn

Yeah, I'm done. Sorry, had a momentary lapse in judgement where I forgot that arguing about anything on the Internet isn't a good idea. Back to cat gifs.

The "I was spanked and turned out fine" argument is dubious because "I am fine" is how we mentally, subconsciously, rationalise our lives and how we act and I imagine that abuse victimes often need to tell themselves they are fine so they can overcome their past. I know I would rather tell myself I turned out OK than have to deal with the everyday psychological problems of domestic abuse.

I'm not making an argument just reporting my own experience. but thanks for being patronizing, that's always a good look.

Is this the most controversial I Love People-Making discussion ever?

I had intended this thread to be jokey (judging other people's parenting is p much nagl and also as a parent its always easy to sympathize with other parents' travails/harried decision-making/exasperation etc.) but things seem to have taken their own course

all started after i merely posted "i think spanking is bullshit"

https://38.media.tumblr.com/aea6154365ff5486049a0c3e837b2a41/tumblr_mk0k416nTW1qkfwf2o1_r1_500.jpg

you all need a spanking

My wife spanked our son before I came along. She wasn't comfortable with it, but didn't know what else to do. Now she trots me out as the "big guns", even though I've never laid a hand on him in anger ("...but I'm beginning to think that 10's not too old to start!" is what I say to him).

Can I even begin to express how much I actually would like to lay into him these days? Such an insolent smart-ass! The temptation is so great.

"You know, when I was a kid..."
"Oh yeah, well things were DIFFERENT in the eighties."
"Get over here you little...." *whack!* *whack!* *whack!* *whack!*

spanking: that's a paddlin'

I remember how "the principal" was a term of terror in elementary school because of the paddle proudly displayed on his wall. it didn't stay on his wall all of the time, as kids at my desegregated school learned all the time. You can infer the ethnicity of who got most of the paddles, in the enlightened state of Florida.

Oh man. One of the stories was that Mr. Horton had holes drilled into his paddle to decrease wind resistance while another one said he somehow had rigged up an electric paddle.

My mom had made it known that I was not to be punished capitally without a face-to-face visitation first, so I basically walked around elementary school like one of those South Africans in Lethal Weapon 2, boasting of my diplomatic immunity.

Good lord, punished corporally.

Not limited to Florida, or a bygone era.

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/expansive-survey-americas-public-schools-reveals-troubling-racial-disparities
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/education-under-arrest/school-to-prison-pipeline-fact-sheet/

teachers spanking kids, now *that* is something that should be outlawed

we had the holes story too. I saw the paddle once, I saw no holes.

also the word was that you had to drop your drawers & get the spank bare-assed, which seems...problematic. not sure if that was true?

I was not to be punished capitally

I lol'd

I grew up in a house where spankings were administered but the line got real blurry between whether you had actually done something that deserved a spanking or if you just happened to be in the way when mum was having a bad day

to a kid there's no difference, either way they walk away believing they deserved it

for me THAT's why spanking is bullshit

 I basically walked around elementary school like one of those South Africans in Lethal Weapon 2, boasting of my diplomatic immunity.

Irl lol

or if you just happened to be in the way when mum [or dad] was having a bad day

Would say it's this in 99.85 percent of the cases.

The holes and electric paddle legend were rampant in the elementary schools I attended, too.

Opposite in my case- it was a smack on the hand or butt, which was probably extremely light but the *fear* of it was the worst. Getting a plastic ruler smack on the hand was the worst punishment. It was never uncontrolled or lashing out or 'violent'.

I'm not exactly for spanking kids but I think this is the most acceptable way? I was never scared I was gonna get thumped for no reason, or anything.

this article has a map (that I can't figure out how to embed here) showing which US states still permit corporal punishment. the states that do...will not surprise anyone.

i'm with Jeff on this one. i don't see why a child's rights should be any less than an adults although what can be done about it, i don't know. spanking has zip to do with discipline and a whole lot to do with the parents own anger issues/immaturity. teach a child that the correct response to not getting your way is violence and that's exactly what they'll teach their children. or maybe they'll just stab mom and dad to death in their sleep. (j/k sorta)

obviously there is a spectrum here and education is far more helpful than removing the children in the majority of cases.

and Veg totally OTM

The "I was spanked and turned out fine" argument is dubious because "I am fine" is how we mentally, subconsciously, rationalise our lives and how we act and I imagine that abuse victimes often need to tell themselves they are fine so they can overcome their past. I know I would rather tell myself I turned out OK than have to deal with the everyday psychological problems of domestic abuse.

― boxedjoy, Thursday, September 18, 2014 1:36 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think part of what I'm getting at is that growing up is a little more complicated than a dichotomy of "abuse victim" vs. "turned out ok." Also this is a pretty insulting suggestion.

itt a shit-ton of condescending white ppl (and marcos)