This is the thread where we judge other people's parenting

Marriages can be a messy process in which lots of bad things inevitably get done even by well-intentioned spouses. So we shouldn't stop men from smacking their wives around, because it would be getting overly involved in their lives and will outweigh the good while not actually making him a better husband.

yeah I'm with Hurting here

And I say that even having seen that, in some cases, reporting and getting social services involved did a lot of good, so I'm not saying never involve the state in parenting. At least in the Bloomberg era and on, NYC child welfare services seems pretty well run to me and does not jump to easy conclusions. But the times I'm talking about involved pretty severe conduct -- severe physical abuse, severe neglect, or sexual abuse.

oh good we're at the unhelpful analogies stage of the argument

xp

Sure, there is something compelling about the argument "we don't accept assault on an adult, why is it ever ok on a child?" And the answer is "It isn't, but what do you do about it? Fine the parent? Jail them? Take away the child? What do you do with the child?" An adult woman can decide whether to press charges, whether to leave, and if she leaves is at least theoretically capable of living on her own without the spouse, none of which is true for a child. My dad once punched me on the shoulder and left a huge bruise, in a shopping mall. It wouldn't have done me a shred of good if police stepped in.

BTW I retaliated by kicking him in the ass really hard as we were leaving.

I think the thing is that the damage done to a kid by taking them away from their parents (especially given our current child welfare system) is usually worse than whatever their parents are up to.

Yeah, and the good thing in NYC at least is that my impression is they are very hesitant to take away the kids, and that there are other a lot of intervention steps that come first.

this thread took a turn

Yeah, I'm done. Sorry, had a momentary lapse in judgement where I forgot that arguing about anything on the Internet isn't a good idea. Back to cat gifs.

The "I was spanked and turned out fine" argument is dubious because "I am fine" is how we mentally, subconsciously, rationalise our lives and how we act and I imagine that abuse victimes often need to tell themselves they are fine so they can overcome their past. I know I would rather tell myself I turned out OK than have to deal with the everyday psychological problems of domestic abuse.

I'm not making an argument just reporting my own experience. but thanks for being patronizing, that's always a good look.

Is this the most controversial I Love People-Making discussion ever?

I had intended this thread to be jokey (judging other people's parenting is p much nagl and also as a parent its always easy to sympathize with other parents' travails/harried decision-making/exasperation etc.) but things seem to have taken their own course

all started after i merely posted "i think spanking is bullshit"

https://38.media.tumblr.com/aea6154365ff5486049a0c3e837b2a41/tumblr_mk0k416nTW1qkfwf2o1_r1_500.jpg

you all need a spanking

My wife spanked our son before I came along. She wasn't comfortable with it, but didn't know what else to do. Now she trots me out as the "big guns", even though I've never laid a hand on him in anger ("...but I'm beginning to think that 10's not too old to start!" is what I say to him).

Can I even begin to express how much I actually would like to lay into him these days? Such an insolent smart-ass! The temptation is so great.

"You know, when I was a kid..."
"Oh yeah, well things were DIFFERENT in the eighties."
"Get over here you little...." *whack!* *whack!* *whack!* *whack!*

spanking: that's a paddlin'

I remember how "the principal" was a term of terror in elementary school because of the paddle proudly displayed on his wall. it didn't stay on his wall all of the time, as kids at my desegregated school learned all the time. You can infer the ethnicity of who got most of the paddles, in the enlightened state of Florida.

Oh man. One of the stories was that Mr. Horton had holes drilled into his paddle to decrease wind resistance while another one said he somehow had rigged up an electric paddle.

My mom had made it known that I was not to be punished capitally without a face-to-face visitation first, so I basically walked around elementary school like one of those South Africans in Lethal Weapon 2, boasting of my diplomatic immunity.

Good lord, punished corporally.

Not limited to Florida, or a bygone era.

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/expansive-survey-americas-public-schools-reveals-troubling-racial-disparities
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/education-under-arrest/school-to-prison-pipeline-fact-sheet/

teachers spanking kids, now *that* is something that should be outlawed

we had the holes story too. I saw the paddle once, I saw no holes.

also the word was that you had to drop your drawers & get the spank bare-assed, which seems...problematic. not sure if that was true?

I was not to be punished capitally

I lol'd

I grew up in a house where spankings were administered but the line got real blurry between whether you had actually done something that deserved a spanking or if you just happened to be in the way when mum was having a bad day

to a kid there's no difference, either way they walk away believing they deserved it

for me THAT's why spanking is bullshit

 I basically walked around elementary school like one of those South Africans in Lethal Weapon 2, boasting of my diplomatic immunity.

Irl lol

or if you just happened to be in the way when mum [or dad] was having a bad day

Would say it's this in 99.85 percent of the cases.

The holes and electric paddle legend were rampant in the elementary schools I attended, too.

Opposite in my case- it was a smack on the hand or butt, which was probably extremely light but the *fear* of it was the worst. Getting a plastic ruler smack on the hand was the worst punishment. It was never uncontrolled or lashing out or 'violent'.

I'm not exactly for spanking kids but I think this is the most acceptable way? I was never scared I was gonna get thumped for no reason, or anything.

this article has a map (that I can't figure out how to embed here) showing which US states still permit corporal punishment. the states that do...will not surprise anyone.

i'm with Jeff on this one. i don't see why a child's rights should be any less than an adults although what can be done about it, i don't know. spanking has zip to do with discipline and a whole lot to do with the parents own anger issues/immaturity. teach a child that the correct response to not getting your way is violence and that's exactly what they'll teach their children. or maybe they'll just stab mom and dad to death in their sleep. (j/k sorta)

obviously there is a spectrum here and education is far more helpful than removing the children in the majority of cases.

and Veg totally OTM

The "I was spanked and turned out fine" argument is dubious because "I am fine" is how we mentally, subconsciously, rationalise our lives and how we act and I imagine that abuse victimes often need to tell themselves they are fine so they can overcome their past. I know I would rather tell myself I turned out OK than have to deal with the everyday psychological problems of domestic abuse.

― boxedjoy, Thursday, September 18, 2014 1:36 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think part of what I'm getting at is that growing up is a little more complicated than a dichotomy of "abuse victim" vs. "turned out ok." Also this is a pretty insulting suggestion.

itt a shit-ton of condescending white ppl (and marcos)

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/16/the_racial_parenting_divide_what_adrian_peterson_reveals_about_black_and_white_child_rearing

That's a good article. Thanks.

IANAP but the 'i turned out fine' argument or the 'it's something that hardly stuck with me' both seem like weird arguments in support of hitting kids: do you really think you would have turned out so much less fine if you hadn't been hit by your parents? if it made such a little impact on your life in the long run, what was the point of using it over other discipline methods? pretty much me and all my friends were physically abused to some degree growing up. our parents considered it 'discipline' but it was definitely abuse - uncontrolled, anger-driven, designed to humiliate as much as punish, belts/kettle cords/shoes/hairbrushes often used in place of an open hand, faces/heads the target as often as the butt/back of the legs.

but who is handing out spanking permissions to parents? oh yes, you're ok to spank your kids bc you don't do it in anger and you don't leave marks, and you only do it as a last resort. nope, you're not allowed to spank bc you have anger management issues and use it for every little indiscretion your kid commits.

dan, i know you've talked about this before, and it's great that as a kid who was spanked you turned out totally awesome - but how much less awesome do you honestly think you would be if you just hadn't been spanked? i'm truly not judging your parents - since clearly the spanking had no negative effect on you, and it wasn't abusive - and i know you posted on ned's fb thread that none of your friends had had the experience of being so abused. but consider that a lot of ppl do not ever discuss how badly they were physically abused as children, even with close friends. and i'm not gonna cast any judgment your way if you decide to spank kids, bc you are clearly not the kind of father who use it abusively.

i don't really want to go into how negatively it affected me growing up, but i will say that being physically abused is a contributing factor to why i don't want kids - i know i'm capable of the same behavior as my mother and bc of her i don't trust myself to manage my anger around my own small child.

i guess my point is: where does the line get drawn? how do kids see that line?

i really don't want to come across as condescending bc obviously i don't have kids and don't plan to, and i think every single one of you seem like you're doing amazing jobs raising awesome kids, and i wish my parents had been half as good as any of you.

I may be condescending but I'm as white as marcos iirc

I think the "This is the thread where we judge other people's parenting" thread is the ideal place to be condescending.

'i turned out fine' argument or the 'it's something that hardly stuck with me' both seem like weird arguments in support of hitting kids

literally no one on this thread has argued this. thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

I was also spanked a few times and I find it hard to believe that they have any special significance in my overall childhood.

thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:13 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

NAGL

i don't really want to go into how negatively it affected me growing up, but i will say that being physically abused is a contributing factor to why i don't want kids - i know i'm capable of the same behavior as my mother and bc of her i don't trust myself to manage my anger around my own small child.

I mean you don't need to be a parent to be a voice of experience here...

saying you were not negatively impacted by spanking /= I AM ALL FOR SPANKING YUP LET'S HAVE IT, YOU OVER THERE I'MA SPANK YOU

and that's why a lot of ppl who were abused as children don't like to talk about it. and i think you're taking what i said and making it hyperbolic.

i mean, you just posted that your wife was physically abused and as a result absolutely won't spank your kids. so i don't really get why you're giving me such a hard time.

literally no one on this thread has argued this. thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:13 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was also spanked a few times and I find it hard to believe that they have any special significance in my overall childhood.

― Immediate Follower (NA), Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:16 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Um, maybe you should read my prior post where I said "I am against physical punishment of kids" -- where exactly did I argue in favor of spanking as a parenting technique?

so i don't really get why you're giving me such a hard time.

strawman arguments not helpful ime