This is the thread where we judge other people's parenting

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/16/the_racial_parenting_divide_what_adrian_peterson_reveals_about_black_and_white_child_rearing

That's a good article. Thanks.

IANAP but the 'i turned out fine' argument or the 'it's something that hardly stuck with me' both seem like weird arguments in support of hitting kids: do you really think you would have turned out so much less fine if you hadn't been hit by your parents? if it made such a little impact on your life in the long run, what was the point of using it over other discipline methods? pretty much me and all my friends were physically abused to some degree growing up. our parents considered it 'discipline' but it was definitely abuse - uncontrolled, anger-driven, designed to humiliate as much as punish, belts/kettle cords/shoes/hairbrushes often used in place of an open hand, faces/heads the target as often as the butt/back of the legs.

but who is handing out spanking permissions to parents? oh yes, you're ok to spank your kids bc you don't do it in anger and you don't leave marks, and you only do it as a last resort. nope, you're not allowed to spank bc you have anger management issues and use it for every little indiscretion your kid commits.

dan, i know you've talked about this before, and it's great that as a kid who was spanked you turned out totally awesome - but how much less awesome do you honestly think you would be if you just hadn't been spanked? i'm truly not judging your parents - since clearly the spanking had no negative effect on you, and it wasn't abusive - and i know you posted on ned's fb thread that none of your friends had had the experience of being so abused. but consider that a lot of ppl do not ever discuss how badly they were physically abused as children, even with close friends. and i'm not gonna cast any judgment your way if you decide to spank kids, bc you are clearly not the kind of father who use it abusively.

i don't really want to go into how negatively it affected me growing up, but i will say that being physically abused is a contributing factor to why i don't want kids - i know i'm capable of the same behavior as my mother and bc of her i don't trust myself to manage my anger around my own small child.

i guess my point is: where does the line get drawn? how do kids see that line?

i really don't want to come across as condescending bc obviously i don't have kids and don't plan to, and i think every single one of you seem like you're doing amazing jobs raising awesome kids, and i wish my parents had been half as good as any of you.

I may be condescending but I'm as white as marcos iirc

I think the "This is the thread where we judge other people's parenting" thread is the ideal place to be condescending.

'i turned out fine' argument or the 'it's something that hardly stuck with me' both seem like weird arguments in support of hitting kids

literally no one on this thread has argued this. thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

I was also spanked a few times and I find it hard to believe that they have any special significance in my overall childhood.

thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:13 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

NAGL

i don't really want to go into how negatively it affected me growing up, but i will say that being physically abused is a contributing factor to why i don't want kids - i know i'm capable of the same behavior as my mother and bc of her i don't trust myself to manage my anger around my own small child.

I mean you don't need to be a parent to be a voice of experience here...

saying you were not negatively impacted by spanking /= I AM ALL FOR SPANKING YUP LET'S HAVE IT, YOU OVER THERE I'MA SPANK YOU

and that's why a lot of ppl who were abused as children don't like to talk about it. and i think you're taking what i said and making it hyperbolic.

i mean, you just posted that your wife was physically abused and as a result absolutely won't spank your kids. so i don't really get why you're giving me such a hard time.

literally no one on this thread has argued this. thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:13 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was also spanked a few times and I find it hard to believe that they have any special significance in my overall childhood.

― Immediate Follower (NA), Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:16 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Um, maybe you should read my prior post where I said "I am against physical punishment of kids" -- where exactly did I argue in favor of spanking as a parenting technique?

so i don't really get why you're giving me such a hard time.

strawman arguments not helpful ime

xxxxxpost good article DJP...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/adrian-peterson-corporal-punishment-science_n_5831962.html

Actually what you said was "I am against physical punishment of kids but..." and then a paragraph of equivocation that stepped right up to the line of saying "spanking your kids is ok" without actually saying it.

I honestly took Hurting's comments to not say so much that "spanking your kids is ok" but "child service detectives shouldn't police every single act of corporal punishment."

But that was a few hours ago and I haven't slept much since then.

multiple xposts to just1n3:

Honestly? If I hadn't been spanked, my shoplifting phase might not have ended when I was 5, and considering that I lived in a regressive small town/exurb with a bored police department that looked for excuses to do something, there's a chance that I would have washed out of the gifted program in junior high and been dumped in the truant pile.

I mean, we're talking about a town/school district where in middle school I got several days of detention that involved cleaning the cafeteria for defending myself when a bunch of my classmates decided to spit on me. What would have happened to me if I hadn't been a "good kid" and was still shoplifting at that point? These are the questions I ask myself when I look back on my parents' discipline methods. I can't speak from the perspective of someone who has suffered abuse because I didn't suffer abuse.

Could my parents have raised their kids without corporal punishment? Sure. We were all smart children and, generally speaking, inclined to be good. Would my family have been granted the same leeway to parent without corporal punishment as an equivalent white family? I really fucking doubt it, and I really fucking doubt it to this day, and the fact that it doesn't statistically make things safer for black children is a fucking black eye for this country's values, and the blithe glossing over of those inherent issues going on in this thread and pretty much everywhere else I see corporal punishment discussed enrages me and reminds me that there's a little Mary Dalton lurking in the hearts of most of my white associates.

(I didn't suffer parental abuse, I should say)

Serious Q: who is Mary Dalton? Google was no help.

The daughter from Native Son

thx, get it now

Suffering abuse definitely clouds my views on spanking so it's probably better for me to hang back & let others weigh in... all of the stuff that has come up in the last two weeks has raised some ugly memories and it makes it a much more emotional issue for me than perhaps is even warranted itt

I recall being spanked twice as a kid. Thinking back on that, my dad's version of spanking didn't hurt. Like, cause no actual physical discomfort, much less some sort of physical harm. It certainly got my fucking attention, which is why I remember the two times it happened! Does it make a difference whether the "spanking" act actually makes a kid hurt, physically? I honestly don't know, IANAP and will never have a dog in this fight.

thanks for your non-parenting 2cents.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:13 PM

i'm an avowed non-parent and found this extremely shitty. just to put my 2cents in, thanks

Ok... I do have a little bit more to say here, more to get it out of my head than anything

My Mum doled out all punishment in our household. We were spanked, and a great many of those times well within the corporal-punishment-in-the-home handbook because we were pretty unruly kids

But then you mix all of that in with being given a blood nose for leaving a wet towel on the floor...Mum throwing a punch when she decides that a lighthearted family tickle fight has gone too far...cuts on your face from Mum's wedding ring after a well-timed backhand

That's all one experience of corporal punishment. It *was* abuse, and it was simultaneously also punishment meted out for swearing, bad behaviour, stealing, lying etc.

I can't tell you that I turned out worse. I won't say I turned out better. But I will say that I can't recommend it personally because it confused the fuck out of me and it scared me.

Personally, I can't view Corporal Punishment vs Abuse as an either/or proposition because it was all the same thing for me as a kid & it took me a long time to learn that there was even a difference.

No shade on anyone's childhood experience or current parenting methods. I just had to get that out of my head somewhere, release the steam etc

But I am glad that the opinions voiced here have made me think about my experience in new ways. Yr all good eggs imo

VG I think it's safe to say that none of us think what happened to you is ok and I'm sorry you went through it.

I won't spank my kids. I've hit Aidan a few times and that was when my anger got the better of me and he was hitting me, and I felt like shit as soon as I did it. I was hit as a child and it made a big difference to how I grew up. I wasn't a naughty child, I didn't like being told off, but if I was being told off and got upset then my dad would give me 'something to cry about'. Now I realise that he has a problem dealing with emotion but that didn't help me at 5 years old. Obviously my issues aren't just over spanking but dealing with emotion, but until I had kids I just assumed that I would parent the same way. When it came to it though I just couldn't do it, that it wasn't about disciplining but about making me feel better, and I didn't want my children to feel how I did.

How's about this for judging, my sister spanks, and I hate being there when she does, because she doesn't do it on the spur of the moment she warns her daughter that she's going to do it, and I know exactly how her daughter feels. I feel the hopelessness of her situation, and also see the resentment that will build up and get in the way of her relationship with her mum, as I saw it happen between my sister and our mum, and there's nothing I can do about it.

Justin3 and Veg, your stories are heart-breaking and sad, and made me think harder about my knee-jerk stance which was, "spanking your kids is fine and sometimes necessary if they don't respond to more reasonable, mature forms of discipline." Like, maybe the potential for it to cross the line into abuse is too great, so it shouldn't be fine? But still, it does kinda rankle because I feel like my parents were pretty awesome, and people on this thread essentially say, "no no your parents were barbaric and abusive because they spanked you."

What DJP said here is pretty close to my feelings about having been spanked as a kid:
Honestly? If I hadn't been spanked, my shoplifting phase might not have ended when I was 5, and considering that I lived in a regressive small town/exurb with a bored police department that looked for excuses to do something, there's a chance that I would have washed out of the gifted program in junior high and been dumped in the truant pile.

in my case it wasn't shoplifting but stealing things from my classmates in order to fit in with "the cool girls" in 2nd grade.

Dan, that's a great article and an aspect to this discussion I had only been dimly aware of before. Thank you.

in DJP's last post I don't understand the following question: "Would my family have been granted the same leeway to parent without corporal punishment as an equivalent white family?" Can you explain that further for me?

we grew up battered but it was far from the worst we dealt with tbph. we were badly raised kids and subsequently a nightmare to manage, but iirc- I may not- the intent was merely to punish/seek revenge for our behaviour (or oftentimes our parents' unhappiness) than any real attempt to manage us.

I don't and won't have kids but don't think a swipe on the arse is the same thing- nothing like the same thing - as the higher levels of physical abuse detailed by some ITT, and especially not in the context of a safe, happy and structured family upbringing.

in DJP's last post I don't understand the following question: "Would my family have been granted the same leeway to parent without corporal punishment as an equivalent white family?" Can you explain that further for me?

First, read the article I linked upthread.

Now, consider this: in society in general, if a black child and a white child are misbehaving in exactly the same way, which child is likely to get the harsher punishment? Which child's parents are more likely to be contacted by an authority figure, whether that be a manager at a store, a teacher or administrator at school or an officer of the law? If this misbehavior happens in public and the parents are present and the discipline is non-corporal, which family is more likely to continue to get disapproving glares and/or comments?

Before answering, remember that we are talking about a society where people came together to hold rallies and fundraisers for a police officer who killed an 18-year-old black male for jaywalking.

So you're talking about leeway as "avoiding disapproving glares", ok I understand. I wasn't sure what kind of "leeway" you meant, whether you had something legal or otherwise compulsory in mind. That's a good point.

Oh you mean contacted by authorities too.

I don't follow how corporal punishment is involved here though: are you taking for granted that it's more effective at curbing bad behaviors than non corporal options? I don't take that for granted.

all serious study indicates that spanking & worse forms of "corporal punishment" (one ought to say "physical" imo, at the least) are ineffective; arguments in its favor are almost entirely anecdotal, along the "it happened to me & I'm ok" line. you'd have to live life twice to say whether a parent who spanked you might have gotten better results by finding some way of communicating / disciplining that didn't involve physical punishment, but again, what studies we have on this say that it does more harm than good, and that what good it does is really questionable.

HAVING SAID THAT, the "acting up will get you killed" argument in that Salon article is really potent; if I thought my son might act up and get shot, would I then say "spanking is needed to make him understand that acting up has physical consequences"? Impossible for me to say; in this town, my son's not going to get profiled. But it's a compelling argument that feels much better than the very common "my parents hit me a lot, and I don't consider myself fucked up, so I plan on hitting my kids" horror that I've been seeing cresting my Facebook feed for the past week.

I was joking with my brat of a kid again last night "you KNOW you're not too old for me to start spanking you, right?"

He says "oh yeah, [girl from down the street] was spanked growing up. That's why she's so well-behaved. DISCIPLINE." Firmly smacks his hand into his other hand, looking me in the eye. "DISCIPLINE."

hahaha

how's life, based on everything you've posted, I'm a fan of this kid.

I read the article and it's helping me see things more clearly. But one thing I don't see is, as aero put it, is: "spanking is needed to make him understand that acting up has physical consequences." Why is it NEEDED? Why be so sure that no non-physical option will work?

Oh come now.

i think it's an interesting question.

Ok, if you prefer: what reason is there to think that physical punishment is a more effective means to make a child understand that acting up has physical consequences, than non-physical punishment?

I say this as a Latino father of three.

Michael Eric Dyson. Apologies if already posted:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/opinion/punishment-or-child-abuse.html?_r=1&referrer

Dan, do you think it was solely the spanking that put you on the right track? I'm sure there were other factors too and I'd be interested to hear them.

Have some serious problems with that Dyson article.

Pathologising the use of corporal punishment amongst African Americans exclusively in terms of slavery is kinda dumb at best. If you're not feeling so charitable, its malicious, patronising and wrong headed.