TS: Billie Jean vs. Little Red Corvette

MJ is kind of like the Star Wars franchise - something I loved as a small child that has since become grotesque and unenjoyable after decades of overexposure, hysterical adulation, and the bloated weight of self-importance. I can't really locate anything to enjoy in the music itself. I've heard it all so many times and its subtexts - abuse, narcissism, Peter Pan syndrome, paranoia, delusions of grandeur - are all singularly unattractive, not sentiments I enjoy reveling in. As dance music there's a million things I would prefer, primarily from the eras immediately prior to his peak (funk/disco) and immediately afterward (hip hop). As 80s synth-funk/R&B goes MJ's weirdo obsessions (circa Thriller we have horror movies, pedophilia, illegitimate children, and an ode to either masturbation or gang warfare who can be sure) just gross me out and lack any sense of fun. In light of the arc of his life enjoying this stuff seems morbid and depressing in the extreme, sort of like how I feel listening to Nirvana. As an "innovator" eh what the fuck ever - he leaned on a lot of people sonically and stayed with the times for the most part. He owes a lot to the Motown machine and to Quincy Jones. I don't hear a lot of crazy formal innovation in his stuff that wasn't already happening in the late 70s and early 80s (Moroder, Prince, copping basslines from Rick James etc.). And I'm not really convinced that his vocal schtick of screeches and grunts accompanied by crotch-grabbing are any improvement over James Brown (or, since we're on this thread, again, Prince). Where he was unique was in the level of his stardom. But I don't give a shit about that.

xp

the way this clip morphs over 14 minutes is kind of mindblowing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5qm8Nu_JjI

i have watched the motown 25 billie jean clip a million times but for some reason i'd never seen bit just before that, the jackson 5 reunion thing. why were they wearing baseball uniforms/stirrups?

He owes a lot to the Motown machine and to Quincy Jones.

If Jackson's home demos are anything to go by, he doesn't owe Jones anything. The vocal and instrumental arrangements are complete, absent only a few horn stabs or string swirls (which, I'm told, Jones wasn't even responsible for anyway).

pop stars being egomaniacs, heaven to betsy, leave me with some illusions

also why do you guys insist on putting two great things in competition all the fucking time

If Jackson's home demos are anything to go by, he doesn't owe Jones anything.

Jackson only has four individual writing credits and co-producer credits on Thriller. Other people wrote and produced PYT, Thriller and Human Nature (and no one gives a shit about the other songs on the album). Similarly Jones produced all Off the Wall, and most of that is written by other people too. Jackson knew how to craft some of his biggest singles, but he constantly relied on other people, he was not some singular genius doing it all himself a la Todd Rundgren or Prince, despite the way he's often depicted. Not that this is necessary to be a great artist (see also James Brown or David Bowie or Dr. Dre or any number of huge figures), but I think it's bullshit when people make him out to be some kind of all-powerful creative force.

A truly great songwriter would have more to his resume than a half-dozen (however giant) singles. and that's all MJ has.

also why do you guys insist on putting two great things in competition all the fucking time

Because putting mediocre movies into countdowns got old.

A truly great songwriter would have more to his resume than a half-dozen (however giant) singles. and that's all MJ has.

― Οὖτις,

wait seriously? He wrote everything on Bad and from that point forward wrote or co-wrote everything.

Shakey, I don't mind your not liking MJ so much as you're using the rockist songwriter argument when in MJ's case it is flat-out wrong, especially when so many demos exist.

PYT is the most bewitchingly perfect pop song I've ever heard, it makes me think of being in school and watching people rehearse musicals, and all this effort and slog and graft and then it suddenly hits a point where it takes flight and looks effortless. MJ just seems totally in control all the way through the song in this really compelling way

Of course MJ relied on others; I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the idea of Quincy Jones as the (or even a) main architect of Jackson's successes.

He wrote everything on Bad and from that point forward wrote or co-wrote everything.

yes all of which is terrible

I only brought up the rockist songwriter/producer angle as part of it because people claim he was a genius at both. being a songwriter/producer is not necessary to being a great artist and it never has been. but if we're going to compare his songwriting/production work to others, I wouldn't even put him in the top 10 on that count. Of the stuff he wrote/co-produced "Rock With You" is probably the best. Even allowing that the other two big hits he wrote/co-produced from "Thriller" are up there as well, that's THREE FUCKING SONGS. which is paltry.

yes all of which is terrible

pfffft

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

I can't relate to Michael Jackson lyrically on any level. It doesn't stop me from thinking he's responsible for some solid jamz.

Good to great self-written MJ songs:

Workin' Day and Night
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Wanna Be Startin' Something
Billie Jean
Beat It
Leave Me Alone
Smooth Criminal
Who Is It
Remember the Time
Jam
Can't Let Her Get Away
In the Closet
Stranger in Moscow
Morphine

I had to stop cuz there's so many.

*and co-written I should have said.

Also, it helps that because I didn't have MTV until the late nineties he (and Madonna) came to me as a radio artist.

Other people wrote and produced PYT, Thriller and Human Nature (and no one gives a shit about the other songs on the album)

tbf the other two songs no one gives a shit about are Temperton's

i thought Thriller was known for people giving a shit about every song

(i give a shit about every non-ballad track)

have literally never heard anyone praise Baby Be Mine of Lady in My Life but sure let's hear it

xp

'baby be mine' is a fucking jam, i thought that was uncontroversial. like with many of his tunes, i've got even more appreciation for it after working on an instrumental (new orleans brass band) version of it recently. the melodies are pretty crazy (modal?).

"Baby Be Mine" is always played on adult R&B and quiet storm.

"The Lady in My Life" is a quiet storm staple and I've long used it as a litmus test for whose opinions I can take seriously about r&b

itt Shakey does a great Mr Snrub impersonation

'baby be mine' is a fucking jam

― festival culture (Jordan), Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:45 PM (28 minutes ago)

i love "baby be mine" and "lady in my life"

hey Shakes, Marlon Brando didn't write any of his films

ohh, didn't realize Οὖτις is Shakey.

Thread needs Alex in NYC

Lady In My Life is spectacular

hey Shakes, Marlon Brando didn't write any of his films

do pay attention, old bean

I'm unaware of people claiming Marlon Brando was a great screenwriter fwiw

Only dud on Thriller is "The Girl Is Mine," and it's only dud because Paul McCartney goes fucking cornball supernova.

but your argument that MJ's work deserves devaluation because he needed Quincy Jones is curious. Few great musicians produced themselves! The Beatles needed George Martin, Bowie needed Visconti, the Heads needed Eno, Madonna needed Patrick Leonard, Janet Jackson needed Jam-Lewis, and so on.

Right, and no one says "man, Janet Jackson changed music in x way" without mentioning Jam and Lewis. There is a tendency with MJ fanatics/partisans to ascribe all manner of genius-level behavior to him, which is just not accurate, and that is what I was addressing. I don't think he was an amazing producer in his own right. I would say that the Beatles were not amazing producers in their own right either, etc.

perhaps in terms of this thread - populated as it is by knowledgeable folks with a more nuanced understanding of how music is made - that's a strawman argument. I was pre-emptively addressing claims that commonly pop up when discussing MJ's "genius" as a musician and the variety of fields involved - singing,songwriting, producing.

I don't think anyone here has called MJ a genius or denigrated QJ's contributions. BTW if you wanna hear how a QJ production changed depending on the artist's sensibilities listen to Donna Summer's 1982 eponymous album or George Benson's Give Me The Night. Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack, and Jackson gets the credit.

yeah, I don't think any sensible person would say that MJ was a production/songwriting/musical genius like stevie wonder or prince.
but at his best, he was quite phenomenal at what he was doing (vocal and live performance, vocal and musical arrangements, some songwriting, production ideas, etc).
there are interviews in which quincy jones said MJ was amazing at finding the right groove for a song.
As a kid I was a fanboy of his (circa Thriller) and I still find OTW and Thriller fantastic. Bad is meh and Dangerous and almost everything afterwards is poor. that said it seems to depend on which album of his you loved as a kid as I've talked with some younger friends who got into him with Dangerous and who still love that album.

Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack

okay now let's not go overboard

I can't think of too many new jack songs as steely as "Dangerous."

It's like Bell Biv Devoe never existed up in here

BBD were on ILX?!

I think "Jam" is harder than any BBD single I've heard.

I mean, from a vocal performance standpoint alone ...

Dangerous is just too long and way too patchy - classic CD bloat

I wonder how people would talk about that period had he trimmed it way down (76 mins ffs)