TS: Billie Jean vs. Little Red Corvette

but your argument that MJ's work deserves devaluation because he needed Quincy Jones is curious. Few great musicians produced themselves! The Beatles needed George Martin, Bowie needed Visconti, the Heads needed Eno, Madonna needed Patrick Leonard, Janet Jackson needed Jam-Lewis, and so on.

Right, and no one says "man, Janet Jackson changed music in x way" without mentioning Jam and Lewis. There is a tendency with MJ fanatics/partisans to ascribe all manner of genius-level behavior to him, which is just not accurate, and that is what I was addressing. I don't think he was an amazing producer in his own right. I would say that the Beatles were not amazing producers in their own right either, etc.

perhaps in terms of this thread - populated as it is by knowledgeable folks with a more nuanced understanding of how music is made - that's a strawman argument. I was pre-emptively addressing claims that commonly pop up when discussing MJ's "genius" as a musician and the variety of fields involved - singing,songwriting, producing.

I don't think anyone here has called MJ a genius or denigrated QJ's contributions. BTW if you wanna hear how a QJ production changed depending on the artist's sensibilities listen to Donna Summer's 1982 eponymous album or George Benson's Give Me The Night. Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack, and Jackson gets the credit.

yeah, I don't think any sensible person would say that MJ was a production/songwriting/musical genius like stevie wonder or prince.
but at his best, he was quite phenomenal at what he was doing (vocal and live performance, vocal and musical arrangements, some songwriting, production ideas, etc).
there are interviews in which quincy jones said MJ was amazing at finding the right groove for a song.
As a kid I was a fanboy of his (circa Thriller) and I still find OTW and Thriller fantastic. Bad is meh and Dangerous and almost everything afterwards is poor. that said it seems to depend on which album of his you loved as a kid as I've talked with some younger friends who got into him with Dangerous and who still love that album.

Even when Jackson worked with Teddy Riley on Dangerous the machine funk is harder and more contorted than any known new jack

okay now let's not go overboard

I can't think of too many new jack songs as steely as "Dangerous."

It's like Bell Biv Devoe never existed up in here

BBD were on ILX?!

I think "Jam" is harder than any BBD single I've heard.

I mean, from a vocal performance standpoint alone ...

Dangerous is just too long and way too patchy - classic CD bloat

I wonder how people would talk about that period had he trimmed it way down (76 mins ffs)

honestly minus "heal the world" and "gone too soon" i'd think dangerous was perfect

I like Prince more, and "Corvette" is probably one of his top 5 singles for me. but "Billie Jean" just never really rated as one of my favorite MJ songs.

― some dude, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:32 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know I get the sense our tastes are a little different but we've got a mindmeld going on on certain things. Def. agree

Also it's not "OMG bacon" lol, there's Prince shit I don't like, "Corvette" is just badass & a neat little tune

Prince's 1982 run is pretty unfwithable imo, three dope albums under three different guises/fronts

WHY IS THE WOMAN IN LITTLE RED CORVETTE WALKING AROUND WITH A POCKETFUL OF USED RUBBERS THATS REALLY GROSS PRINCE

you'd better be drinking ersatz coffee if you are reusing rubbers

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:20 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm, posts like this are why ilx rules

seriously why do i have to relate to mj

"almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity" vs. "intricate, electric failure of masculinity that is also totally funky, who gives a shit"

i agree with you, i love mj's music, but it's pretty disturbing and the sadness is hard to comprehend. this quote from before thriller came out: "Even at home, I'm lonely. I sit in my room sometimes and cry. It's so hard to make friends ... I sometimes walk around the neighborhood at night, just hoping to find someone to talk to. But I just end up coming home."

*the full scope of its sadness is hard to comprehend

is Michael Jackson outsider music?

absolutely

I dunno how anyone can listen to "Bad" (the song) and not hear it as a totally desperate, almost comically inept manifestation of masculine insecurity. Everything from that point onward became by turns hamfisted and/or disturbing, whether he was singing about skin color not mattering (hmm gee wonder what's going on there) or fantasizing about fucking Diana Ross. Delivered by a manchild in a military uniform that builds giant statues of himself. Even typing this out makes me lol at the baldly ridiculous (and ultimately very sad and tragic) insanity of this guy's output. He was not a happy guy working through his problems; his catalog is a funhouse mirror of denial, delusion and solipsism. I don't really get how people relate to it.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 18, 2014 4:20 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If the content of his music strikes any kind of chord in you its has to be because on some level it does resonate with you. The lack of filter on his presentation of these themes can be pretty jarring but you can't be looking very far inward if you've never felt comically inept in your posturing masculinity (I mean, that to me is a big part of what makes "Bad" so fun), or found your own conception of race and skin colour disturbing, caught yourself fantasizing about weird or inappropriate sex (maybe not Diana Ross...) and built edifices of yourself in your dreams (ymmv with that one).

I mean of all the ways in which a human being can manifest as outlandishly weird, unhappiness, denial, delusion and solipsism strike me as pretty universal (outsider music is an interesting tag I'd never considered). You may not necessarily be able to relate directly to it, but is it really that much of a stretch to see where it comes from and empathise with it?

voted "Little Red Corvette" I love how the song builds tension, climaxes, and then fades. In truth, I'm way too biased for this poll.

I appreciate "Billie Jean," but I think it mostly relies on the great sound it has. It has that moody/haunting vibe going on throughout the song.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Wow! Everyone came out for this one, huh?

Clearly songs that generate strong feelings in all of humanity. Impressed with how close this was.

Simple: I called my relatives and asked them to vote. Black Panther guards protected them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlY0H6PTIrc

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/obituaries/leon-ndugu-chancler-versatile-drummer-is-dead-at-65.html