Ongoing U.S Police Brutality and Corruption Discussion Thread

what can the federal govt conceivably do about these kinds of cases? (serious legal question)

I mean beyond civil rights violation charges

fucking cops . check the comments

http://www.policeone.com/Crowd-Control/articles/7921845-Lawyer-No-indictment-in-NYPD-in-custody-death/

Nothing I know of... but Al Sharpton just spoke to Holder. #stuntman

xp

xp to shakey, not much is my impression, a federal civil rights case has even more hurdles than a regular state criminal case from what I can tell

Abolish Federalism

wasn't even aware of the darrien rice case until just now, fuck

Good resource for this bullshit:

http://filmingcops.com/

I think it's really important that these protests go on and get coverage , it looks like there is a lot of ignorance out there, protest legitimates the critical viewpoint.

idk that it achieves much of substance besides providing a place for protestors to commiserate tbh

(which is also how I felt about all the anti-Iraq war protests I participated in)

Holder opening federal probe into Garner case

this shit is sickening

i'm sure that wrt to this stuff holder's heart is in the right place but his promise of "federal probes" basically just serve to calm dissent at the moment it's about to erupt. nothing will come of the probes of the ferguson or NY PDs.

idk that it achieves much of substance besides providing a place for protestors to commiserate tbh

History suggests otherwise. People in the streets does not always translate into substantial change, but sometimes it does, and certainly more often than empty streets (or silence).

The bigger the crowd, the better.

Protests also help people organize. Not sure why shakey, others feel the need to constantly argue with history on this one.

Street protests in the u.s. haven't significantly impacted policy in over 40 years. Centers of powrr have hyper-specific polling data now, protests don't meaningfully scare them as an indicator of voting payterns, so they just dgaf.

I'm not saying don't protest - I do it and it has some personal value to the participants and sympathizers, but its not an effective tool for directing policy.

no one thinks that a protest is going to directly change policy

Most efforts at substantive reform fail, regardless of method.

Reliance on one method alone is likely to increase the chances of failure, especially in the absence of well-organized efforts and strategy.

That's hardly a condemnation of any one method, street protests included; it's just a reminder of how difficult change is.

To what extent is there sympathy with the idea that admissions of privilege, vocal solidarity and participation in protest from white people are inappropriate at the moment? I can see how the CrimingWhileWhite hashtag might strike many as crass but there seems to be a deeper feeling from a lot of the people I follow on Twitter that white Americans should disengage from the conversation and spend that time signal boosting the voices of those more directly affected.

^how i feel, being a body/node in solidarity.

I generally feel kind of :/ about any solidarity expression that seems to move the focus to the speaker's whiteness/maleness/whatever.

*as a white male

There's just always a little tinge of "BTW I AM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES" to it.

its not an effective tool for directing policy.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 4, 2014 4:44 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i can think of 4 million undocumented people who might disagree. protest doesn't set policy. it can push it.

To what extent is there sympathy with the idea that admissions of privilege, vocal solidarity and participation in protest from white people are inappropriate at the moment? I can see how the CrimingWhileWhite hashtag might strike many as crass but there seems to be a deeper feeling from a lot of the people I follow on Twitter that white Americans should disengage from the conversation and spend that time signal boosting the voices of those more directly affected.

― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Thursday, December 4, 2014 6:33 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

local friend wrote this recently

http://wellexaminedlife.com/2014/11/26/dear-white-people-ferguson-protests-are-a-wake-not-a-pep-rally/

This is why I went to the White House after the announcement. I was hoping to be surrounded by my fellow Black people, to yell, to scream, to cheer, and to sing. I wanted to gather my people around me and boldly assert my humanity to the world. Yet that’s not what I found. What I found was a mostly white crowd of college-age liberals chanting, hugging, and taking selfies with their overly-dressed up roommates. There was energy, an excitement in the air that I couldn’t share. Being surrounded by a group of young white people alternating between hugging friends who had joined them and shouting angrily at the cops (many of whom were Black) was not validating my humanity.

this is a little pat, but afaic ours is not to speak & lead, ours is just to RT & read

OTM

Hoos otm

love that

To what extent is there sympathy with the idea that admissions of privilege, vocal solidarity and participation in protest from white people are inappropriate at the moment? I can see how the CrimingWhileWhite hashtag might strike many as crass but there seems to be a deeper feeling from a lot of the people I follow on Twitter that white Americans should disengage from the conversation and spend that time signal boosting the voices of those more directly affected.

"Vocal solidarity and participation in protest from white people" is good, it just has to be done with some mindfulness.

If we start wanting to silence people because they're speaking in solidarity with a group other than their own, we're fucked.

In any case there's a bigger group to which we all belong, which is the human race.

I think...there's...a push-pull between that ethos and "fighting racism is everyone's problem"/the necessity of white ppl perceiving racism and doing anything about it in their own lives & communities.

I lean slightly toward thinking that protests are not (usually?) meant to be a "safe space." If you were looking for a healing place of only similarly intersectional/marginalized people like yourself...I just don't think that's what direct actions are? Likewise organizing groups should be up front about who they're looking to include--some groups will hold their identity & membership to PoC, for instance.

I hate the Criming while wite shit and stuff, but the road to getting conscious is not nec pretty all along the way. I don't really know what to do or say (if anything) about this.

I got xp'ed along the way. "that ethos" = "ours is not to speak & lead, ours is just to RT & read"

Like, there's a very strong feeling that "white silence = white consent" but at the same time there are PoC speaking strongly against white expressions of "solidarity" or whatever on soc med. Well...?

xxxp I don't think that's what's being argued here, a good analogy might be Take Back The Night protests where men are asked to march behind the women b/c it's not about the men

It's white people's job to convince other white people to listen to PoC.

Yeah, sure. But not all white people wake up in the same way, taking the same steps. I don't have, like, a "final word" on how they should progress, apart from finding a lot of it personally distasteful, but that's looking back with a lens that I have learned to apply.

Mostly I wish white ppl who are just learning didn't inflict their progress on PoC in the meantime--but you can't get to ALL of them.

There's just always a little tinge of "BTW I AM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES" to it.

Yeah that's true, but then I want to say, so what ? Does that matter, if it's accompanied by other motivations? Is it even avoidable, given human nature? And doesn't this impulse (to signal "I'm one of the good ones") overlap with something bigger, which is the desire to mark for history the fact that, in the face of a certain injustice, some in that society were willing to protest?

I don't know, I think we on the left have this tendency to want to do things just right, with complete purity, and without pissing anybody off (who we might not want to piss off). It becomes silly at a certain point. So a bunch of white college kids were a little too giddy at a rally. Fine. They should be more mindful. Absolutely. I'd still rather they be there than not!!

the motivation is fine, it's the focus that's the problem imo. Focus on black lives mattering, not on "hey I'm white and I get away with shit, lol"

#CrimingWhileWhite was fine when it was about "I did this thing that was recently in the news as a capital offense for a black man and I was barely even reprimanded over it"; the people who think it's funny are precisely the problem. Recognizing that there are everyday things that you get away with that someone darker than you may not be able to do without consequence is an important part of recognizing racism.

Ok I agree re focus. Also I don't know much about this #Criming phenomenon so my comments may be off the mark wrt that. I'm addressing the broader notion that whites should disengage and refrain from expressions of solidarity.

It's white people's job to convince other white people to listen to PoC.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:11 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^ This, I think. Educate yourself, read, listen, RT, spread what PoC are saying on the matter. Try and give them a stage, to let them be heard, in whatever small way is within your capabilities.

Because for every street protest there's a congress or summit organized - all with good intentions, no doubt - discussing integration, immigration, racism or police violence. But the panels are still mostly 100% white (and male). That needs to change first I think. All it says - again, it might be out of the best intentions - is white people decide whether we listen to PoC or not. Meaning white people don't take PoC seriously still.

xp yeah fair enough, I guess I just generally feel like there's been a little too much navel-gazing by lefty white people ever since "check your privilege" became a phrase. That said, hearing about the Garner case at work made me very suddenly conscious of things like being in an office building with security turnstiles, living in a neighborhood where police don't harass people, and yeah, being a parent who will probably never have to give my children "the talk" or otherwise worry about them having run-ins with the police in which the police are the antagonizers. I am definitely pro self-awareness about all of this, I just don't like seeing people get stuck on it.

IO to be clear I don't think Aaron showed up to the White House looking for direct action--i think he went to be outraged and in pain, and he found himself surrounded by people more interested in another round of Yell At The Building than sharing in or standing with his suffering.

Friend from London mentioned the same TBTN parallel saying that men were asked to start having separate marches there--to make the point "maybe white people should be having separate solidarity marches," which I'm not sure I agree with.

yeah I don't think that's exactly a parallel

I think our campus TBTN had a rally at the beginning or end that men could attend(I remember attending) but the march was all female, and also speakers were all female.

Friend from London mentioned the same TBTN parallel saying that men were asked to start having separate marches there--to make the point "maybe white people should be having separate solidarity marches," which I'm not sure I agree with.

Why did your friend think this might be a good idea? Did he explain ?

at one of NYC's protests in the wake of the Wilson non-indictment, there was a massive crowd pushing through the streets, chanting, holding signs, stopping traffic, blocking intersections, many of the cars honking in support. many of the people were white, and on two different occasions i heard a PoC say something like "wow, look at all these white people" and it made me wonder if my presence was a positive thing. i do think that, on balance, it was good that we were there. i guess the question than becomes what is acceptable behavior for white people at these events.

It's white people's job to convince other white people to listen to PoC.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:11 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^ This, I think. Educate yourself, read, listen, RT, spread what PoC are saying on the matter. Try and give them a stage, to let them be heard, in whatever small way is within your capabilities.

and that's where it gets murky for me. convince other white people to listen to PoC, of course! but sometimes just retweeting something without comment doesn't really do much, and adding your own take on it makes it more personal and prompt more of a response. i realize that can come off as white people trying to dominate the conversation and make it about them but the intent (at least for me) is just to personalize it. i tend to respond to other people's social media content (i just puked it my mouth, sorry) more when they've added something of their own to it rather than just posting a link, and i don't think i'm alone in that.

How is "personalizing" something distinct from making it about yourself?