I read the Nick Tosches book- Dino, Living High In The Dirty Business of Dreams, I believe- and it was very entertaining, but I agree with es hurt, NT was taking the piss a little bit. It was written before Rat Pack Cool came in- at the time all those guys (except Frank, I think) were viewed as jokes. I like Dino in movies- when he sings "My Rifle, My Pony and Me" with Rick Nelson(!) in Rio Bravo or especially when he sends up his own image playing a character called Dino in the underrated Kiss Me, Stupid.
I think Hurting's original objection is sort of personal rather than technical, unless I misread something. And I haven't thought about it much, but it seems to me that influence-wise, he's the number-two popular singer of the past century, after Louis Armstrong, if the wisdom I have received is correct.
― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 3 February 2005 17:16 (nineteen years ago) link
which is all to say: sinatra was a fucking grandmaster of a musician.
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 3 February 2005 17:25 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 3 February 2005 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link
― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 3 February 2005 17:46 (nineteen years ago) link
Frank Sinatra was arguably the most important popular music figure of the 20th century, his only real rivals for the title being Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley, and the Beatles.
Horseshit
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:17 (nineteen years ago) link
My recieved Wisdom throws Ella up there too, for what that's worth.
― Austin (Austin), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link
Stormy's recommendations are solid, and as I mentioned above, I'd also get "Francis Albert Sinatra and Antonio Carlos Jobim."
Also good: "Come Sing With Me" and "Come Fly With Me"
― Austin (Austin), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:25 (nineteen years ago) link
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:30 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:32 (nineteen years ago) link
It's hard for us to see why Sinatra and Crosby were so revolutionary in their day, because just about everyone who came after absorbed their innovations. Try talking to someone who lived through the 40s though, and you'll get a different perspective.
― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:41 (nineteen years ago) link
This is a ridiculous statement. Of course he was a musician, and a good one.
I meant that he was not an arranger nor a songwriter, and he didn't try to be one. People layed the music down and then he proceded to phrase the lyrics around that.
― blawa (blawa), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:54 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 3 February 2005 19:57 (nineteen years ago) link
I guess he had as say in arrangements but I am pretty sure he didn't layed any scores down. There is no reason, especially with the power he held, why he wouldn't have had a say in what he sung. All I am saying is that his main contribution was in the vocal arrangements and singing the song as best he could.
― blawa (blawa), Thursday, 3 February 2005 20:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 February 2005 20:06 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 3 February 2005 20:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― kyle (akmonday), Thursday, 3 February 2005 20:13 (nineteen years ago) link
― kyle (akmonday), Thursday, 3 February 2005 20:14 (nineteen years ago) link
"My Way" is a piece of crap (I prefer Sid Vicious' version), and most of what he recorded after 1960-1961 is rather uneven, until 1968, when his output becomes unbearable. THAT'S when the style overwhelms the substance.
Lyrically and musically, the song always struck me as a piece of defiant hubris - the kind of thing you might sing before being sucked straight into hell. There is something about it that suggests the character has not only failed to triumph except in his own mind, but that he has somehow failed to see beyond his own needs. One could imagine, perhaps, a very rich and unhappy man singing that song.
― thee music mole, Thursday, 3 February 2005 20:20 (nineteen years ago) link
OK just to remind you, AMG says Frank Sinatra was arguably the most important popular music figure of the 20th century, his only real rivals for the title being Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley, and the Beatles. So this is about 'figures', ie great musicians who largely defined 20th century popular music. Can anyone seriously think Duke Ellington, James Brown, Billie Holliday, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, Ray Charlescome nowhere near the likes of Bing Crosby and Elvis Presley in terms of overarching importance? As you say, if you define importance as popularity then AMG's picks might be the ones, but that's not what the word conveys to me.
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:38 (nineteen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:43 (nineteen years ago) link
yeah, this whole "no, so-and-so was the most important" stuff is k-boring.
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:47 (nineteen years ago) link
and i agree this stuff is k-boring, but amg started it!
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:49 (nineteen years ago) link
― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:50 (nineteen years ago) link
― Austin (Austin), Thursday, 3 February 2005 21:50 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:04 (nineteen years ago) link
Those wacky AMG dudes! Sometimes they right, sometimes...but the above is one stupid-ass statement. Obviously, it's Louis Armstrong. I think Bing and the Chairman would've agreed...Elvis, I dunno, he would've said "that little negor fellow we bumped into on the Strip," or something. Or one of the Blackwoods maybe. That's one thing I never got about Elvis--why couldn't he have called up Sinatra and said, "I wish to work with the guys who play for you, that Bill Miller..Basie, is he available?" It's one of the reasons I say Sinatra over Elvis--I mean, OK, Elvis did use some good guys like in his band, like James Burton, they were fine, but he could've done so much more. "The New New Tennessee Waltz: Elvis and Jimmy Rowles Sing and Play Stick McGhee." "Elvis/Dolphy Summit at the Chicken Shack!!," an album of Louis Jordan tunes arr. by Oliver Nelson. "Delta Duck Got Webb-Foot: Presley, Jim Webb Style." "Hillbilly Bop: Elvis Presley and Sonny Stitt, Burnin' at the Village Vanguard." Instead, he hung out in Vegas and Memphis and ate Nutty Buddies. I don't get it...I guess he really didn't have any fuckin' idea what he was doing, and Sinatra did.
― fatsdominoruins (ddduncan), Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:32 (nineteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 February 2005 22:41 (nineteen years ago) link
― Heidy- Ho, Thursday, 3 February 2005 23:02 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 3 February 2005 23:34 (nineteen years ago) link
TS: Sinatra's racist banter vs. Eminem shooting gays
uh, you don't get it
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 3 February 2005 23:38 (nineteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 February 2005 23:40 (nineteen years ago) link
I can't stand Frank, either. Beautiful voice, I will grant you, but most of his music makes me want to kill myself. Depressing stuff when you think about it.
― The Biggest Regret of My Life (u s steel), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 17:01 (thirteen years ago) link
But that's so often what makes it great! I imagine you don't like Joy Division either.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link
He wasn't too popular with the GI's coming back in '45 and '46 either.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link
XpostSongs for Swingin' Lovers, A Swingin' Affair, Come Fly With Me, Come Dance With Me and Sinatra's Swingin' Session!!! — all of which are great — are hardly depressing affairs.
― Jazzbo, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 19:23 (thirteen years ago) link
I still have a vivid memory of being in the back seat of my parents' car as a youngster on a rainy day, and hearing the radio play Frank's version of "Cottage For Sale." Being a rock and roll loving youth, I thought this was the most lugubrious, horrible song ever, and it pretty much summed up what I thought of Sinatra in general. It took me another decade or so to come around to the swingier stuff, and even longer to "get" this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_hVwk3CXzk
― Glorified Lolcat (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 19:25 (thirteen years ago) link
yipee! i'm not alone. FS couldn't sing! the songwriting is terrible too, though i'm not sure if that's his fault. ― xenografia, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 4:20 AM (6 years ago) Bookmark
can we look into retroactive SBs?
― door to door legume salesman (San Te), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 01:13 (thirteen years ago) link
also re: My Way, Frankie himself hated that song for many of the reasons listed ITT. He hated the lyrical content.
Jesus fuck, this thread is a monument to tin-eared idiocy.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 01:46 (thirteen years ago) link