Spielberg & Kushner's Munich '72 / Israeli vengeance film

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I think pointing out that the political bidness in Munich is intellectually weak is valid, though I'll now agree that if you're looking for some kind of intrigue it's more prevalent and done better in For Your Eyes Only

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:20 (seventeen years ago) link

My biggest problems with Spielberg boil down to things like where the apparently random Americans cockblock Avner's A-Team when they're on schedule to put bullets in greasy bad guy no.8, knowing that greasy no.8 is associated with the CIA, he feels the need to have another expository convo between Avner and greasy ashkenaz no.1 wherein they wonder to each other if those apparently random Americans could have been GASP CIA.

"I've heard this forest is full of dragons"
*woosh of flame, flap of wings sound*
"Do you think that might have been a dragon?" - in other movies, this is called comic relief, but Spielberg thinks it is necessary, because he thinks that all of us are in the 2nd grade.

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Americans, dude. They are in 2nd grade re geopolitics, and maybe I am cuz I didn't feel insulted.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks Tombot for bringing up that scene - it reminds me of how much I enjoyed Munich. I thought that was a great scene, full of complexity and menace. It takes a quotidian sort of late-night encounter and shows it to us through a microscope, so that every particle of weariness, paranoia, loneliness and existential dread is thrust to the surface.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:40 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm not saying you should "feel insulted," I'm saying that "Violence begets violence" isn't exactly a stunning shocker of a political message, and the people who are dumbfounded that Israel/Palestine aren't cut-dry make me kind of sad. That's not something that has much to do with the film itself.

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:41 (seventeen years ago) link

I really don't know how clearer to say this. The film isn't about Israel. The nationality of those involved are only determined by the setting. I didn't, at any point, feel that Spielberg was attempting to make a point about geopolitics and I kind of think saying he was is probably a far worse insult towards the film than anything that Tom has said. I don't think it should be judged--either for good or for bad--on the daringness or lack thereof of its geopolitical mettle, or some of its factual flaws.

The reason I thought the film was middling was because I didn't feel it was as successful as several other thematically similar films I've seen on expressing the human consequence of violence escalation and revenge in a public setting. If I was judging the film as a geopolitical thriller, I'd give it higher marks actually!

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:47 (seventeen years ago) link

i agree largely with Allyzay's reading, except i would want to argue that the film situates itself as being about ww2 and fallout (ie, 20th century)--or the problem of "modernity" and violence, etc.

in other words, yeah it's about violence and revenge, but it's not trying to be Aeschylus.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Of course it's about universal human issues AND the Israel-Palestine situation. That it was made by the guy who, well, 'popularized' the Holocaust in this generation, and was lionized by many Zionists for it, suggests that the specific situation is relevant.

I was shaking at the end of the film, feeling mournful and depressed in a way that wasn't touched by A History of Violence, to name a stylistically dissimilar film that trivialized the Cycle of Slaughter theme.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 16:34 (seventeen years ago) link

A History of Violence kind of left me cold, I definitely feel like more of Munich stuck with me. Granted, I've seen one far more recently than the other but most people are pretty intuitive about such things; I remember being underwhelmed when I left the theatre.

Interesting comparison in terms of themes, that one didn't occur to me at all (insert joke about immemorability here). Even down to the contrasting semi-bookend sex scenes being used to illustrate the downward spiral!

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 22:07 (seventeen years ago) link

Irrespective of their sociopolitical contexts, Munich and AHOV moved me in different ways. If I liked AHOV more, maybe it's cuz I have a weakness for male revenge psychodramas.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link

morbius mccarthy WAS evil, or at the very least malicious and destructive. do you seriously debate that?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 22:16 (seventeen years ago) link

If I liked AHOV more, maybe it's cuz I have a weakness for male revenge psychodramas.

Haha this doesn't explain anything to me! ;)

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Tuesday, 6 June 2006 22:19 (seventeen years ago) link

ugh, AHOV was a complete dud. As shallow as GNGL and really really weak as a b-movie revenge flick.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 00:24 (seventeen years ago) link

It was a well-acted, overdirected b-movie, which was fine by me.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 00:26 (seventeen years ago) link

dood william hurt and ed harris were fucking awesome... "Joey"

― chaki (chaki), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 00:32 (seventeen years ago) link

'a history of violence' is great!

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 02:30 (seventeen years ago) link

and not a revenge flick

― gear (gear), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 02:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Not really but it definitely is what Morbius claims.

Ed Harris and William Hurt were definitely the best parts of the movie; I think part of the reason the film ultimately left me cold was that I just didn't like Viggo and wifey at all. AHOV does a fantastic job atmosphere building, Harris esp. is totally creepy and tense-creating.

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 03:03 (seventeen years ago) link

also howard shore's score >>>>>>>>> john williams' score

― chaki (chaki), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 04:22 (seventeen years ago) link

I think part of the reason the film ultimately left me cold was that I just didn't like Viggo and wifey at all

The relationship (esp the sexual) b/w Viggo and Maria Bello was the most compelling part of the movie.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 11:47 (seventeen years ago) link

morbius mccarthy WAS evil...do you seriously debate that?

No, I don't want to see a 90-minute "earth not flat" film either.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 12:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I felt like it should've been more compelling, but it just...didn't do it for me. I really just didn't like them. The movie was well made and interesting but I didn't have much interest in either of the married couple; which is odd because clearly the tension and menace all surrounds Viggo's identity so I can't quite put my finger on why I felt all of that yet had such little interest in him.

It is thoroughly possible that my dislike for Viggo (and Eric Bana, for that matter, they kind of are similar in my mind) colors perceptions here!

otm on score.

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 12:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Can't remember a note of Shore's music. I think scoring the Dungeons & Dragons trilogy may have sent him down the chute.

Munich shows that the international death industry, presumably motivated by nationalism and securing the primal hearth, is actually just a big unstoppable economy (feeding families like "Papa" Michel Lonsdale's).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 13:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha that seems akin to me to not wanting to see a 90 minute "earth not flat" film though! ;)

I liked that angle and the interactions with the family but I was half expecting Papa to come down with a heart attack during the idyllic countryside dinner sequence. Some of the shots were soooo similar, I am half curious if it was purposeful because of the inevitable comparison that would be made there regardless.

― Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Wednesday, 7 June 2006 13:10 (seventeen years ago) link

twelve years pass...

What a film -- my first viewing since 2006.

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 30 April 2019 02:22 (five years ago) link

Spielberg had a pretty interesting run in the oughts: AI/Minority Report/Catch Me If You Can/War of the Worlds/Munich. (Didn’t see The Terminal)

― Conceptualize Wyverns (latebloomer), Tuesday, 30 April 2019 02:34 (five years ago) link

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