Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

Has there been ONE comic-book film that will stand decades later as a 'classic' adult work of art like the best westerns of Ford, Hawks, Boetticher, Mann, Leone etc?

I daresay there's an argument to made for the Batman Returns-Dark Knight trilogy

Even if there hasn't been, that doesn't mean there are no similarities between the genres.

Sure: American Splendor, Persepolis, Ghost World, Corto Maltese, A History of Violence, Oldboy, etc.

But if you're talking about superhero movies alone, I'm not sure what point of comparing them to "classic adult" Westerns, because they're not aiming to be "adult" works in that sense. That doesn't mean the best superhero movies can't be as satisfying and successful at what they do, though. There's not just one measuring stick for good movies.

(x-post to Morbius)

yes Tuomas, we were talking about the Marvel-type films, which are closer to being $250 million iPhones.

have you actually seen any of the marvel movies, Morbs?

Well, you only said "comic-book film", and it's a pet peeve hate of mine that people equate "comic books" with "superhero comics", when superhero comics are a small minority among the comics produced around the world.

But I still don't get your point... Do you think action movies in general are a lesser genre? Because most recent superhero films are basically action movies with some sci-fi/fantasy dressing, and the best of them work really well as such. Judging them by the standards of some other genre makes little sense to me.

(xpost)

stevie: yes

see what i did there

I don't know much about westerns but were they generally aimed at adults or did that only come in the 50s and onward?
I don't know how much kids playing cowboys vs indians has to do with movies but surely a lot of kids were seeing the older westerns?

I'm really curious why martial arts films have dried up so much. It doesn't make sense to me. I've heard that a lot of the new stuff is on Hong Kong tv that doesn't get imported. Most of the martial arts films that do get imported look like boring prestige epics (the comedy seems to have disappeared).
But regardless of the new stuff, it seemed like videogame, comic and science fiction fans watched waaaaay more martial arts films (from 70s to present) in 90s-early 00s than now. Why isn't our martial arts thread more busy?

lack of cultivation of auteur choreographers, directors, stars in the industry? but that still leads to more questions.

Fight scenes in mainstream action flicks are geberally more martial arts influenced than before, maybe that fulfills the need?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/c/c8/Hulk.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131214213537

"My flyswatter style will surely defeat you!"

Hmmm, maybe videogames too have saturated them with all they need.

But part of what I'm saying is that fans of cult stuff were watching loads of old and new martial arts films until a decade ago. Especially following Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Sonny Chiba etc.

I was hoping The Raid might lead to a new generation of international martial arts but for now it ain't happening.

Οὖτις otm btw. Westerns (in their heyday) and superheroes both draw on the stories and heroic archetypes in vogue when their moviemakers were kids. Lord knows what it'll be in 60 years...a profusion of Mad Max survivalists probably.

All superhero films are alike, pretty much. And I like a couple of them. But compared to all the stuff that was done with the western... Basically, mainstream movies have been codified, don't think there's a single of them that will be looked at as fondly as stuff like Stagecoach or The Searchers or The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance. But hey, wasn't 2001 one of the biggest blockbusters of all time back in 1968? Back then, you needed repeat viewing to be a phenomenon. The economics are different today.

It's crap, superhero movies. But if it's enjoyable crap, I don't care. I will prob watch the new Avengers with my little brother, and the new Bond with my parents.

On martial arts: Isn't Tony Jaa in the new Fast & Furious? Perhaps that will get some kids to watch thai martial arts film.

xps Still holding out hope that The Raid will inspire a new generation of intense action movies as well, but maybe it'll take time to bear fruit. Wishful thinking at best, I know.

As stevie mentioned I think Batman Begins/The Dark Knight might stand out as the most fondly remembered and respected films from this superhero era. And if not as "seriously" respected as Ford, Mann and what-have-you, the first two Superman and Burton Batman films are also as beloved as any popular films out there.

But besides whatever should supposedly be the composition of a respectable evergreen classic of film history... we'll be lucky if superhero films do move towards more complex takes on the genre like Searchers and Vallance. Or Johnny Guitar.

well, there aren't many superhero comics which i'd call traditional literary masterpieces (although i value them tremendously as art in other ways) so i dunno if there's any reason to expect the movies to be evergreen classics of film history

although on the other hand it took time for westerns to evolve - maybe there will be an equivalent advance in superhero movies if they hang around for long enough

Actually I think superhero movies should go in the opposite direction and embrace the kids audience in (hand)animated films. I still think those Bruce Timm styled DC cartoons are the best screen versions of superheroes. Their version of Joker was just brilliant.

auteur takes on pulp genres

I wasn't really thinking of making a qualitative comparison fwiw

xxxp

Even if superhero movies evolve in an adult form (if the Nolan movies don't count), that still won't please people like Morbs. The style of Big Hollywood productions is anathema - they'd hate Rio Bravo and The Searchers if they were made in 2015 just because of what's involved to produce a film like that today.

wtf, who wants an "adult" superhero movie; do we also have to have "adult" animated films featuring CGI pandas?
there are a handful of comic book films that are made for adults and they are highly acclaimed: American Splendor, Ghost World, A History of Violence

The first Downey Iron Man was reasonanbly adult.

..as was Superman II (I can't imagine a ton of 9-year-olds being tickled by Gene Hackman's car dealer vibe).

ok I give up I don't know what you mean by "adult"

otoh i fucking hate those Nolan movies' adolescent idea of what's adult. DARK, WITH ATOMIZED FIGHT SEQUENCES.

There needs to be a superhero movie with a plot that makes sense or is in some way relatable to the common person. Even if movies are broadcasting DIRE CONSEQUENCES and THE END OF THE UNIVERSE they really haven't successfully portrayed that imo. There is no suffering, no consequence to the actions of anyone in the movies. The heroes may be killing as many people as the villains as they smash through skyscrapers, and nobody really cares. It's all detached and context-free. Westerns seem very tied to their landscapes and the places in which they take place, most comic book movies seem to sort of exist and are later transposed onto the real world.

I don't think a movie made 30 years ago is very relevant to modern superhero movies. It's closer in production to the aforementioned westerns than The Avengers.

It's all detached and context-free.

yeah this drives me crazy, really takes me out of the film(s)

There needs to be a superhero movie with a plot that makes sense or is in some way relatable to the common person.

Kick-Ass is attempting something like this, though it has its cake and eats it.

Why is being relatable to the common person important?

Don't forget Blue Is The Warmest Color, Forksclovetofu.

i'm sure there's a bunch of other movies for adults, French and Japanese stuff in particular, that qualifies as a comic book adaptation that I must be forgetting.
Art School Confidential, though that was pretty lame.

Jim Broadbent was great in that though. His character's paintings were great too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_comics

pre-marvel era, Blade and Hellboy (1 and 2 for both) are the gold standard imho

Yeah Hellboy II might be my favourite superhero film.

I mean relatable wrt consequences and things, like Iron Man having his Stark Tower blown up isn't quite so devastating cos we all know he is super rich and will just buy a new one.

I wonder if any 'pro-superhero/comic/movies based on comics that may or may not feature superheroes' argument has ever swayed anyone who thought that those things were crap.

I explicitly referenced superhero comics movies (not comics movies) for a reason. it's the superhero movies that have parallels to westerns

and I wasn't making some bid for "respectability" on the part of superhero movies (most of which I find to be well-made but ultimately empty and forgettable fan-service garbage) by comparing them to westerns, just wondering about the parallels in terms of their popularity, their ubiquity, the forces behind production of both etc.

to pacify Morbz I happily agree that I haven't seen any superhero movie that approaches the Searchers (or the Wild Bunch or [insert classic here]) - there have been some good ones, and the genre is fairly young but corporate (and the push for continuity, esp on Marvel's part) have inhibited any auteurs from really using the genre to push boundaries or do something really interesting. Nolan and Singer come closest and in both cases their trilogies have major flaws/regrettable entries.

"corporate goals" I meant to say there

I haven't seen any superhero movie that approaches the Searchers (or the Wild Bunch or [insert classic here])

Yeah but tbrr most westerns don't, either.

remember when m. night shyamalan tried to make a serious comic book-style film

he's really the expert at misfiring on all cylinders imo

Yeah but tbrr most westerns don't, either.

definitely! and there were way more westerns made than superhero movies (at this point). Expecting a "Searchers" level film to come out of a such a young genre with so much corporate and commercial pressure to do otherwise is not really realistic.

Looking through those film lists (grateful for the notation of live action and animated, especially for manga), missing a few like Blue Is The Warmest Color, Two Fat Slags and Dellamorte Dellamore (although the other Dylan Dog film is listed).

Anyone seen this film, Tokiwa?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117933/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_3
It's about the studio Tezuka and other manga pioneers worked in. It's supposed to very good but it hasn't been released outside east Asia.

remember when m. night shyamalan tried to make a serious comic book-style film

Do you mean Unbreakable? I genuinely think that is an interesting - and quite successful - attempt to tell a different kind of superhero film; in places it reminds me of a Steve Gerber comic.

Baffled by the love for Hellboy II, an unbreakably boring film.