Sex Object

https://vimeo.com/12915013

important viewing ott

if you wanted to factor out dominance then at the very least you'd have to design the robot to gain something from the interaction maybe? some kind of pleasure receptor? also the robot wd have to be self-powering and not rely on a human "master" to plug it in or carry out other essential care functions

It springs from this idea that sex is inherently an aggressive display done *by* someone (usually coded male) *to* something (usually coded female).

I would not agree with this conclusion. Consenting sex that physically expresses one's affectionate feelings for one's sexual partner most certainly doesn't need to be "an aggressive display". It can be slow, sweet and very loving.

But when two humans are involved, that loving relationship presumes a voluntary emotional attachment which derives meaning and value largely because it is freely chosen and freely given. That freedom is measured by the ability of the other to say 'no', to refuse, to change their mind or their heart, or to leave to follow a new path away from you. If a robot is programmed to choose you, then in my view that outcome was controlled and dictated by your desire and by your choice and was not the action of your equal in any meaningful way.

being on the "receiving" end of sex can and should be as pleasurable as being on the "dominating" end

If what makes the relationship ethical can be measured solely in terms of the pleasure taken in it by all parties, then I'd agree that a robot could be programmed to experience some analog to pleasure in engaging in sex with you and by that yardstick, instantly becomes ethical. But again, that pleasure is a foregone conclusion, and you could as easily program it experience pleasure from any stimulus whatsoever.

Imagine an audience of robots that always laughed uproariously at all your jokes, even when you didn't find them funny. It wouldn't be that the robots didn't find your joke funny and were pretending to enjoy them. They'd be programmed to feel huge mirth. But it would be an extremely sad sight for anyone who understood what was happening.

hey branwell:
https://twitter.com/geetadayal/status/631224784605425664

Look I don't know about you but I get a very strong feeling that it would definitely be unethical to ask Geeta to ask Ralf Hütter if having sex with his robotic replica would be ethical. I can't imagine any scenario where that isn't uncomfortable for everyone!

Also I just got this mental flash of Data from Star Trek saying "I am fully programmed for all pleasure functions."

...but there was this whole 70s sub-genre of disco songs about having sex with robots (Automatic Lover springs to mind but I know I've had this discussion before and there were others.)

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/we-need-a-fourth-law-of-robotics-stop-fingering-my-11148

(was only joking btw, you know that though of course) xps

No, that was Interpol with the fingerbanging (insert Deutschebank reference here) not robots.

I am obsessed with this song and no one wants to talk about how great it is.

(Is it the only song that features collaboration with someone from "outside" the band? Certainly the only song with a female collaborator.)

tbh i suspect ralf would handle that question with great aplomb

Hmmm.

I'm not sure it matters whether he would *handle* it with aplomb, but more whether it's an OK question to ask in the first place? If it were possible to ask in the same spirit of playfulness, teasing and fun that the thread was conceived, he might be amused by it, and talk about robot antics. But I know Geeta said it was going to be a telephone interview, so that it might not be possible to convey the playful tone without body-language and other meta-text.

I haven't spoken much to Geeta since she left ILX so it might be a definitely odd question for *me* to pose her, y'know? I am more worried about offending her than I am about offending Ralf or Robo-Ralf tbh.

Oh, sod it. Life's too short, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYMnLlzVZI

Coming back to Aimless's long post here:

But when two humans are involved, that loving relationship presumes a voluntary emotional attachment which derives meaning and value largely because it is freely chosen and freely given. That freedom is measured by the ability of the other to say 'no', to refuse, to change their mind or their heart, or to leave to follow a new path away from you. If a robot is programmed to choose you, then in my view that outcome was controlled and dictated by your desire and by your choice and was not the action of your equal in any meaningful way.

The more I read this, the odder it seems. Because there is lots and lots of sex in the human world that does not conform to this rather idealistic set of standards. There is, as before, sex as communication, sex as relief of bodily urges, sex as a transaction. And lots of people do not like to talk about sex as transaction, because it raises even more thorny issues than sex with robots.

I realise now that the ethical quandary here is not about "sex slavery"; it is about sex work. "Ya tvoy sluga; Ya tvoy rabotnik" is very clearly setting the parameters of the relations. The robot is a servant, a worker. We are talking about prostitution and we are talking about workers' rights here.

Soldering a rampant rabbit onto Robo-Ralf or the Florimatic-2000 would be grade-school engineering, but the issue about whether it is OK to employ a robot for sex does not just raise issues about whether it is OK to employ humans for sex. It raises issues about whether it is OK to force semi-sentient robots to do anything - whether that's build cars, sort Google's images or perform the greatest hits of Kraftwerk at the Tate. It is not just sex-worker robots that would be slaves; it is *all* robots.

So it does kind of come back to another current controversy, which is about sex worker rights. It's not about whether Robo-Ralf enjoys his work (or is indeed programmed to) but whether he has freedom from mistreatment, freedom from exploitation and the right to recourse should his working conditions be dangerous. (I don't believe that sex work is inherently unethical; I believe that the illegal form of sex work within a patriarchal society deliberately creates dangerous conditions in order to control and exploit women, gender minorities and homosexuals. Are robots to be added to classes of those patriarchy considers "non-human" humans to be exploited in this way?)

So I guess whether or not it's ethical to have sex with Robo-Ralf is not about whether he enjoys it (he can after all be programmed to enjoy it!) but about the conditions in which he is kept, whether he is satisfied with the treatment (i.e. it is not acceptable to turn a robot on and then forget about him, leave him with his pleasure circuitry all humming away; this is cruelty to robots, and should be prevented) and whether he has the ability to bargain collectively for better remuneration (if he wants a surge protector for his batteries because the power supply in my part of London is so unreliable) or conditions.

I think I have been working on databases for too long to even be seriously considering this.

NV, I'm at home on my shitty old laptop (my laptop would definitely tell Robo-Ralf "Run away! Run away! she is terrible to computers!") so I can't read embedded videos. What is it?

Linnea Olsson playing a lovely cover of "Sex Object" on cello and sampled loops

think you're right that whatever passes for "free will" in roboterms wd be beyond simple reciprocity of pleasure and more a case of the robot being free to choose not to participate - which wd mean freedom from dependence on any particular human mastress - which obv casts all sorts of reflections back on human sexuality & sex work anyway

The whole point of having sex with a robot is the idea of someone who is not just performing emotional labour, but having sex with someone who does not *have* feelings. In that case, the robot is free to choose to perform the sex act based on other considerations.

But also Sex Object is a weird song in the Kraftwerk oeuvre because human-Ralf suggests, after years of depersonalisation, hey, robots might have feelings too?

i feel like a robot as a robot isn't even really existentially free to refuse participation? in a way that humans theoretically are?

also in the song all that "yes" "no" "maybe" suggests a) some kind of binary-esque process for self-determination and b) one of those magic 8-balls or the toy plastic robot with the magnet underneath that spins round to point at ouija board answers

Forget sex work, can the robots even quit Kraftwerk the way the Muzikarbeiters did?

thinking about the importance of saying "no" in child development and how to work out the concept of robots that can refuse their robotitude and would that be programmed?

I love the fact that it's Yes / No / Maybe / Perhaps, not just to fit the meter of the song, but also to suggest that not only is there an uncertainty beyond a binary (your good old NULL value in programming) but that uncertainty might itself be binary or even multiple.

In the song itself, the binary of Y / N is interrupted by the sudden introduction of the "Why?" which is a very un-computer question to ask. (Female humans do not act like computers, they pose the existential "Why?" question instead of just responding Y / N to propositions.)

(There are definitely different orders of uncertainties like there are different orders of infinities.)

I wonder if we're looking too deeply, and missing a more obvious interpretation? Could he not be singing as a human? i.e. he perceives that he is being treated as a sex object by his own robot. (What are the ethics of being harassed by your robot for sex and dealing with that)?

"Why?"

Which reminds me (of):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2P-aCYfHCc

Karl Bartos' Elektric Music "Baby Come Back"

Branwell are you aware of this? Äkta Människor a.k.a. Real Humans a.k.a. Humans on Channel 4

Cos it seems like it might be RIGHT up your street. Being, essentially, Kraftwerk Robots The Mini Series.

Thanks for the rec; but I basically gave up on trying to understand or keep up with television a long time ago. Is it fiction or a documentary about real robots?

Elvis Telecom told me to check out The Silver Metal Lover by Tanith Lee which seems entirely ~relevant to my interests~ right now regarding robot musician sex.

Fiction, 8-part drama about synthetic humans programmed to be house servants / do menial McJobs, some of whom become sentient.

How do we know that robots factor into the song at all?

What do robots even have to do with Kraftwerk at all!

Things that Kraftwerk sang that they were..

1) "We are the Robots"
2) "We Are Show Room Dummies"

...

3) the operators with their pocket calculators

4) sexy data scientists

5) travelling down the motorway

6) in the spaaaaaaaaaaaace laaaaaaaaaaaaaaab

7) Cyclists

8) the voice of energy

9) online-dating user

9a) transmitters
9b) receivers

Sorry - 10a and 10b there

What do robots even have to do with Kraftwerk at all!

How much of Electric Cafe continues that concept? Everything mentioned above was from their earlier works, at least half a decade ago! This one seems to be about the way technology was starting to affect our music, our connections with people, what we do for leisure, no "We are the robots" or "I need a data date" or whatever. Would you claim that "Tour de France" is about robots bicycling? That "Vitamin" is about androids taking their supplements? Is this not in fact what you meant!??

Ralf Hütter, in Stern Magazine: "'In the German language, names are often occupations, like Müller (Miller) and Bauer (Farmer). I don't feel like Mr Hütter any more but rather like Mr Kraftwerk. I feel like a robot."

Florian, earlier: "Machines are neither master nor servant. It's a rather more sophisticated relationship ... As for ourselves, we love our machines. We have an erotic relationship with them."

also cyclists are cyborgs

I don't have a considered opinion on the key questions here but coincidentally I came across this article in Le Parisien magazine today. There I learned of the book Love and Sex with Robots which might be up your alley.

How much of Electric Cafe continues that concept?

it has roborgs on the cover?

It opens w "Boing Boom Tschak" which has the bandmember imitating a drum machine and pretending to be musical robots ("music non-stop").

I am also curious about these "games" she is playing, which are "just parfait". Is he saying that her frozen dessert game is strong, or would he prefer the occasional Pavlova?

Anyway, who would win in a FITE! between Kraftwerk and a dinosaur?

can the robot have specific needs that can be satisfied by one particular human rather than another? can you disappoint the robot by not fulfilling these needs? sex is a mirror. what does the robot need from you, and is it given honestly?

yes, no, maybe, perhaps, all at once, that imperfect feedback loop that depends upon employing agency and surrendering agency at the same time. there's some subterranean negotiation of boundaries. there has to be a wall of sleep, an upwelling of emotion, a memory of what it felt like last night, a sense of i liked how you told me i was beautiful, this can be replicated.

the robot should be able to refuse sex because the checkout person at target was rude to her and he/she's not feeling it right now.

it does seem a bit odd to me how a lot of pro-sex worker arguments have a strong tinge of that kind of liberalism to them, but maybe making the argument that all work is terrible including sex work but this doesn't mean working conditions and safety shouldn't be improved isn't going to fly outside of shirker communist circles

"All work is terrible" therefore, let's have labour laws and employment tribunals, etc. is the valid logic here. People mostly agree that conditions in sweatshops are terrible, but the moral position is: put pressure on retailers to source more ethical suppliers. Very few people are making a genuine argument that we should ban garment workers and everyone should wear only clothes knitted for them ~with love~

But it just shows how SWERF logic just does not hold up when examined.

God we're gonna need a new acronym for Robot-Exclusionary RF''s. Damn RERFs keeping me from sexy funtimes with Herr Robo-Ralf.

Keep out the rerf ralf

Raggy?

I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those damn kids!

lol

Das Geheimnis Maschine

✓

Funnily enough I've got a photo of eine Geheimnis Maschine with an ex-member of Kraftwerk around here somewhere...

http://1.1.1.5/bmi/filtermagazine.com/images/uploads/benjamin-curtis-michael-rother-josh-klinghoffer-ATP-2005(2).jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8d/ab/8c/8dab8cc28af9c585c1023ff62100e182.jpg

http://storyboardsecrets.com/blogspot/26e3e880e6a8_CEE2/Facebook-Wolverton-Robot-Woman-Weird-Mysteries-002-1_cr_thumb.jpg

Man, I am just cranky as heck today and in order to de-crankify myself clearly I need photos of das Sex Objekt

https://41.media.tumblr.com/56529712ffbd3f5bd883ed743187f144/tumblr_nvtxuxVyii1qbmupoo7_1280.jpg

I am not sure when I started fancying septuagenarian Germans with faces like potatoes and strange dye jobs but what makes you happy makes you happy so why should you not preserve the little happiness there is in the world. Oh Ralf you adorkable nerd.

Cranky me before looking at pictures of Kraftwerk:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/d24ef4ee5b62d8da5079c9e32205fd72/tumblr_nte7bvC45f1shxh5xo1_400.gif

Me after looking at pictures of Kraftwerk:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/bb4752fe30b95ce7b7a20218a453c347/tumblr_nte7bvC45f1shxh5xo2_400.gif

Yes.

He is looking well on it.

(What "it" is, ymmv, etc)

Thank god for Tumblr memes.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/a5332e9267f364f933097a71b9a8d3fa/tumblr_nvyu816U0b1qm9sieo1_1280.png

lol

I imagine actual Ralf's actual front sitting room looks pretty similar.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/f8661459f586a1493542bc6b34be7f1f/tumblr_nwmicboMBW1rjw8sqo1_400.png

Look, Ralf has put it in writing: the robots are responsible for groupies.

How do I become a groupie?

Lookit this disgustingly geriatric sex objekt with his crepey skin and his old man jowls and his annoyingly perky blue eyes and his freckles and when did I start fancying old men but uuuuhhhhhhhhhh

http://40.media.tumblr.com/ff9e9bab54fc40cb33c88988a7ee61b2/tumblr_ny2e66nrjp1rjw8sqo1_540.png

LOOKIT HIM. LOOK. AT. HIM.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/f3f2b425d74ce1928b176ab135687217/tumblr_ny2e66nrjp1rjw8sqo2_1280.png

Oughtn't to be allowed. Being so sexy at his age, good god there should be a law against that or something. Besmirching my good pure mind with his filth. Make it stop.

I am aware that Ralf has feelings on this.

https://36.media.tumblr.com/eada5a57a766300fd3a7fcb4ae6e0d35/tumblr_ny148rGzSU1qkx7ifo1_540.jpg

https://40.media.tumblr.com/0b7358dcea8e4b2e9a87268997c559fe/tumblr_ny482p1s7i1rjw8sqo4_1280.jpg

^^^^sheer pornography

https://41.media.tumblr.com/7eb9dd224b6e19232701714d1baa134c/tumblr_ny482p1s7i1rjw8sqo5_1280.jpg

I can't cope with the sex objectification on display here.

*explodes in giant ball of attempting to lick the screen*

wow awesome

jesus

The rest of the interview is just Ralf being typical "Ja it is difficult to play with click but we merge with our machines I think soon" Ralf but mine eyes nearly popped out of my head when I saw that!

BRB; rebuilding Klingklang in my basement.

But the funny thing is, since I posted it, Tumblr keeps showing me the post and suggesting I follow myself?

Oh, nice article, thanks.

BRB; rebuilding Klingklang in my basement

Build some of these while you're at it:

http://www.google.com/patents/USD244717?cl=en
Electronic percussion musical instrument
US patent US D244717 S
Filing date Jul 10, 1975
Inventors Florian Schneider, Ralf Hutter
(just the layout is patented, no functional details)

http://www.google.com/patents/EP0396141A2?cl=en
System for and method of synthesizing singing in real time
European patent EP 0396141 A2
Filing date May 3, 1990
Inventors Florian Schneider, Gert Joachim Ott, Gert Jalass
(circuit diagrams! for midifying a Votrax speech synthesiser or uh sth)

Aaah, the Singing Typewriter one I've seen before. But not the drum pads ones that Wolfgang says he invented and they stole from him.

Thank you for this!

I know German is a funny language but the idea that Ralf lived on "animal garden" street* makes me laugh probably far more than it should.

*yes I know it means "zoo"

Awwwww, Ralf-paws.

Things I have open in adjacent tabs:

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/what-would-sex-robots-for-women-look-like

What Would Sex Robots For Women Look Like?

Next tab:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/photo-of-ralf-hutter-and-florian-schneider-and-kraftwerk-florian-and-picture-id85853934

Yes.

nice pic