Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

y'all I know this might not be the time or the place but I have so many feelings, and so many FACTS, and I just can't seem to stop myself today

so what I was trying to get at with the historical, frontier-justice stuff was, there is this basic trajectory that goes:
1. Take your guns to the frontier and kill indians until it's safe enough for your wife & kids to join you there
2. Hang onto your guns for a while, because all of the neighbors are similarly armed shady men from dubious pasts, & the laws are not well-enforced
3. Gradually relax your gun-hand as 'civilization' begins to take hold

at stage 2 of this process, the argument that you put yourself at risk if you're one of the the first citizens to stop carrying his gun everywhere does have a certain game-theoretical logic to it; thing is, we are SO FAR past that point, the only way not to see it is to be willfully ignorant of statistical realities (the ones that say stuff like, "If you keep a loaded gun in your house, it is vastly more probable that you will end up shooting a cousin of yours who got too drunk at a party in the neighborhood but then remembered your house was nearby, or that one of your kids will take it to school, than it is that you will ever use it to stop a crime")

just very tired of the argument that goes:
"But I love to hunt! At least let me keep my guns for that?" --> "Okay, but keep them unloaded & trigger-locked." --> "WHAT?! Then how am I supposed to protect my family?!" --> "You don't get to do that anymore. Guns are demonstrably not effective when used in that way, while the risks associated with their misuse are substantial enough to create a societal interest in regulating your guns." --> "WTF 2ND AMENDMENT!!!11!"

Maybe one of the "regulations" of our "well-regulated militia" could be: you can have a gun, but you don't get to sleep with it next to your bed.

"But I love to hunt! At least let me keep my guns for that?" --> "Okay, but keep them unloaded & trigger-locked." --> "WHAT?! Then how am I supposed to protect my family?!" -->

Every male member of my family (and some of the girls) hunts, and tbh I've never heard them complain about trigger locks and unloading their weapons; they think they're sensible, stemming from the suspicion that there is no such thing as an unloaded gun.

... but obviously all of this is moot speculation, because it's going to turn out that the San Bernardino shooter with the Arab name was a 100% red-blooded American gun-nut who had been stockpiling ammunition for the end times, and the response will be to blame to FBI for not using racial profiling to catch him sooner **sigh**

xp: yeah at this point my diatribe is less about beliefs of individuals, more about the pundits & organizations who draw ad libitum from those beliefs to defend the status quo, but are under no obligation to actually believe them in any kind of internally-consistent way

No matter what the ultimate finding is about the cause of this massacre there will be people in the right wing media claiming that ISIS was behind it and we all need our guns and why won't Hillary say radical Islam...

you know when people say, "We live in interesting times"
America 2015 feels like the exact opposite of that
"We live in predictably horseshit times"

the problem is more the batshit insane NRA membership and the politicians in their pockets than the gun owners, although fuck them too.

the democrats refusing to say radical islam thing is pretty dumb tbh. throughout the middle east commentators refer to ISIS as radical Islam. is there really a single human being alive who is at risk of being radicalized by ISIS but bc obama didn't use the words 'radical islam' they decide to not signup? the problem is that they're super committed to meaningless symbolism but they continue to drone bomb throughout the middle east which is actually a real thing that might radicalize people. it's just dumb.

otm

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/672464419620810752

i feel like there might be a productive aspect to this. we've all heard about how gun ownership by the black panthers contributed to the 1968 Gun Control Act. if radicalized muslims were able to walk into a store and legally buy weapons might that be enough to get pro-gun racists to support more gun control?

Headline on DRUDGE reads: Suspicious Neighbor Didn't Report -- Fear Of Being Called RACIST! http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/12/02/authorities-search-redlands-home-tied-to-suspect-syed-farook/

I go back and forth on IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING... because most people are fucking stupid and end up harassing innocent people... but maybe worth the collateral damage to stop shit like this? not sure...and of course, it's never reported when see something, say something actually works out and plots are foiled... hundreds of terrorist attacks have been prevented in NYC since 2001...

Which state might be the first to ban guns?

― avant-garde, sissy bounce, zombie rave, aquacrunk, warlock, oceangrunge, (imago), Thursday, December 3, 2015 12:17 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

CA, NJ, NY or MA i'd assume if it was going to happen anywhere. they're already the states w/ the strictest laws in the country

― Mordy, Thursday, December 3, 2015 12:22 PM (56 minutes ago)

guns can't be banned by the states

well "banned." states also can't ban abortion.

imago is british so i'm assuming he was asking literally

fair enough- I assumed lj knew enough to have heard of the 2nd amendment

hundreds of terrorist attacks have been prevented in NYC since 2001...

what's wrong with you?

Might be more polite to ask for a source to that claim imho

so if i hear someone talk about pro-life should i say something? what should i tell 911?

Might be more polite to ask for a source to that claim imho

― Moray, Thursday, December 3, 2015 1:35 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ray Kelly

thanks for trying to raise the level of my discourse, mordy. of course that's what I meant.

Might be more polite to ask for a source to that claim imho

― Moray, Thursday, December 3, 2015 1:35 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ray Kelly

― flappy bird, Thursday, December 3, 2015 1:39 PM (15 minutes ago)

well if the NYPD said it, it must be true

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/12/02/authorities-search-redlands-home-tied-to-suspect-syed-farook

i'm not seeing anything of substance here except some guy saying he saw 6 middle-eastern men "raiding" the dude's home.

I believe he said he had seen six Middle Eastern men around the home which was later raided by police.

ahhhh

if he called the police the shooting would've never happened, just sayyyainnniing

i'm still not clear what was suspicious

A man who has been working in the area said he noticed a half-dozen Middle Eastern men in the area in recent weeks, but decided not to report anything since he did not wish to racially profile those people.

what does this "in the area" even mean

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHwV2ZlUkAAKWeF.png

worth it

I have seen the madness in my area

^^^what I thought of too

As often happens in these situations, the horror I feel regarding the central tragedy is rippling outwards as I consider how many lives are affected or potentially affected by one selfish action. Like how much worse it has suddenly likely become to be Muslim in this country. And I can't stop thinking about the baby. Such a shitty cloud to grow up under. Your parents cared more about murdering a bunch of random people for no discernable reason than they did about being your parents.

I wish every time there was an Islamic terror attack the discourse didn't immediately shift to concern about "how much worse it has suddenly likely become to be Muslim in this country." Is there a single other minority group that gets this particular discourse over and over again? I am not denying the existence of anti-Muslim sentiment but it feels an awful lot like a strategic elision.

facebook post by the sheriff in ulster county new york.

Ulster County Sheriff's Office
3 hrs ·
December 3, 2015

ATTENTION LICENSED HANDGUN OWNERS

In light of recent events that have occurred in the United States and around the world I want to encourage citizens of Ulster County who are licensed to carry a firearm to PLEASE DO SO.

I urge you to responsibly take advantage of your legal right to carry a firearm. To ensure the safety of yourself and others, make sure you are comfortable and proficient with your weapon, and knowledgeable of the laws in New York State with regards to carrying a weapon and when it is legal to use it.

I also want to remind all Police/Peace Officers both active duty and retired to please carry a weapon whenever you leave your house. We are the thin blue line that is entrusted in keeping this country safe, and we must be prepared to act at any given moment.

Thank you,

Paul J. Van Blarcum
Ulster County Sheriff

dude needs to layoff the redbull. wow.

wtf?

Mordy yr an idiot

I'd go get the popcorn for this but then I'd have to leave the house and probably walk into a mass murder

Whenever a member of a minority group commits a crime I promise you the rest of that minority group gets worried that hate against them will increase because of it, but afaict no other group has this particular discourse emerge instantly the moment a crime is committed. It makes me think it's more political/ideological than actually borne of real concern. I don't remember a lot of people worrying about antisemitism increasing after the Bernie Madoff scandal eg.

hmm wonder if something happened in 2001 that makes this different somehow

I mean I remember a lot of Jews worried about it but I didn't see articles in the press about how careful we need to be in light of etc etc. People rightly understood that the story was the crime, not the potential blowback to the crime.

i forgot about bernie madoff killing thousands of people

What does that have to do with anything? When Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians I don't see people expressing dismay that innocent Jews in the diaspora will get blowback for it. This is literally a discourse about only one group.

a lot of it is posturing, sure. doesn't necessarily make it wrong

To clarify: I don't think any innocent people of any group should suffer because of the actions of another member of that group. But I also suspect that the reason there's always a rush after every Islamic terror incident to make it actually be about Islamophobia is not because of that consideration but because of a broader political ideology.

What does that have to do with anything? When Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians I don't see people expressing dismay that innocent Jews in the diaspora will get blowback for it. This is literally a discourse about only one group

That happens literally every time Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians.

No, literally every time Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians there is blowback. No one argues against it, and in fact I see plenty of people justify it on the grounds that Israel is really to blame.

Whose fault is it that Jews in France are targeted during the Gaza War? Israeli Jews. Whose fault is it that Muslims are targeted after a terror event? The bigots targeting them. There's definitely a double standard in place.

That is a ludicrously reductive reading of what happens in these situations.

yes people concerned about the gendered, racialized violence against women in hijabs/niqabs that come after terror attacks are blowhard political ideologues, congratulations, mordy you really nailed us. and it really seems consistent with your rant about cynicism over the zuckerberg thing yesterday on this board.