Sec of State: Chelsea Clinton
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 01:04 (eight years ago) link
I've a soft spot for Kerry after the medal throwing, the Kerry Committee on the Contra-drug link, and the investigations into BCCI.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 23 January 2016 01:15 (eight years ago) link
being generous, i'd say hillary does indeed have impressive experience -- she's seen extremely up close how the presidency works, she's been a senator, she's been secretary of state. there doesn't seem to be much evidence that her experience has made her terribly good at those things tho, and her association with 90s retreads is uninspiring
i guess bernie was pragmatic as mayor of burlington?
and beyond policy questions is whether either has the capability to manage the executive branch, eg here in nyc diblasio probably has better intentions than bloomberg, but seems much less effective at running the show
― mookieproof, Saturday, 23 January 2016 01:21 (eight years ago) link
she's not good at politics!
There's some truth to this. I respect her chops as a policy wonk, but I'm not sure her political skills have really been proven. Her record of electoral success is basically two easy NY Senate races. Bernie has a much more impressive record of winning competitive races (and as an Independent, which is not easy in American politics). On the other hand, it's always better to be lucky than good, and so far it looks like her luck might hold this year, if either Trump or Cruz ends up as the GOP nominee. Those two could make her seem downright likable.
― o. nate, Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:26 (eight years ago) link
can we not use the phrase "policy w---" ever plz
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:35 (eight years ago) link
I'm not trying to oversell it, but there's a reasonable argument to be made that the same sort of political instincts that allow a politician to run a sharp campaign are equally necessary to being a successful president, iow a president who achieves their policy objectives. If HRC wins, she'll be incredibly lucky that Paul Ryan is another w*** who seems not too attached to the goddamn Hastert Rule.
^edited for your viewing pleasure
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:42 (eight years ago) link
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/bernie-sanders-and-the-realists
now this is a piece that criticizes the sanders campaign while deigning to give it some of the respect it deserves
― k3vin k., Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:47 (eight years ago) link
Not sure what the objection to "wonk" is. Isn't WonkBlog still a thing? Anyhow, let me phrase it differently: I think she has a good grasp of policy detail and for the most part well-thought out policy positions that she can ably defend in a genteel debate-type setting (whether she can effectively sell them to the electorate at large in the face of crude populist attacks being a different question).
― o. nate, Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:53 (eight years ago) link
to me it's shorthand for "doing your research like an intelligent person," a concept that Beltway elites can't understand w/out belittling (I'm not attacking you, I hope!).
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:57 (eight years ago) link
Ah, I see. Seems like we need a word for the opposite of "wonk" then to describe politicians like Trump, who seems to think the minutiae of policy are for losers.
― o. nate, Saturday, 23 January 2016 02:59 (eight years ago) link
Latest poll shows Clinton up by 29 points in Iowa. Polls are weird.
Btw, what are the great accomplishments that Sanders has done?
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:00 (eight years ago) link
he voted against the iraq war
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:03 (eight years ago) link
nah -- ryan being a wonk is seen (for now) as a positive because it makes him seem 'smart'
maybe he gets a pass because beard + bro lifting also makes him 'charismatic'?
― mookieproof, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:03 (eight years ago) link
Latest poll shows Clinton up by 29 points in Iowa. Polls are weird.Btw, what are the great accomplishments that Sanders has done?
He pretty much spearheaded fixing the VA. You know the VA, right? Those are all the people Hill sent to Iraq. How's that?
― Iago Galdston, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:09 (eight years ago) link
i don't know much about the VA work, but i don't see why it can't be a good example. if someone devoted his life to war (a general) and was running people wouldn't question his experience to run a government
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:15 (eight years ago) link
Wel...
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:16 (eight years ago) link
Clinton News Network. Why did I even bother? You're like the Geir Hongro of American politics
― Iago Galdston, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:26 (eight years ago) link
Yeah, it's 'lamestream media', right?
No seriously, he was head of an area when a scandal hit. There's disagreement if he fixed it quickly enough. It's hardly Obamacare...
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:29 (eight years ago) link
quickly enough for what?
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:31 (eight years ago) link
Read the link.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:33 (eight years ago) link
http://www.skychariot.com/N90BR/SproulTCRabbitCF144.jpg
― salthigh, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:33 (eight years ago) link
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZYBjldVIAE8b0N.jpg
This is Our America
― mookieproof, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:44 (eight years ago) link
There seems to be a pretty massive double standard. Sanders get's points for voting against the iraq war, though it didn't mean a thing, but Clinton get's none for the failed health care reforms in the nineties. New York is a safe seat, but Vermont is apparently really competitive... And being a congress member is somehow better than being Secretary of State and First Lady of US and Arkansas.
Look: Hillary Clinton is the most experienced candidate. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise. She might not be a good politician, she's obviously too centrist for most of this board - including me - but stop arguing that she isn't vastly more experienced than Sanders. It's stupid.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:45 (eight years ago) link
look: there aren't that many danish nationals arguing for the establishment american democratic candidate online at 0445 local time. it's ridiculous to argue otherwise
― mookieproof, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:50 (eight years ago) link
"failed health care reforms"
she bungled this, dickweed
― hunangarage, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:52 (eight years ago) link
― mookieproof, 23. januar 2016 04:50 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Sure, but what has that got to do with anything?
Man, Sanders fans are the worst.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:53 (eight years ago) link
That second sentence was in reaction to humangarbage.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:54 (eight years ago) link
i was kind of being flippant about the iraq war vote, but 'voting against the iraq war, though it didn't mean a thing" is a stupid thing to bring up while also discussing our veteran affairs
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:56 (eight years ago) link
― Frederik B, Friday, January 22, 2016 10:45 PM (5 minutes ago)
saying sanders' iraq war vote means nothing is a joke, sorry. (maybe it means nothing in terms of the outcome of this election, but it...signifies something.) votes on iraq sure meant a lot in 2008.
agree though that clinton is more experienced. is experience itself a virtue? not necessarily. but i'd agree that arguing that their "experience" is comparable is not really useful
― k3vin k., Saturday, 23 January 2016 03:57 (eight years ago) link
if there is a difference between signifying and meaning something then it's beyond me, but that war fucking meant something
i think Frederik might have been meaning more in terms of policy tho idk
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:00 (eight years ago) link
outcomes, nevermind
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:01 (eight years ago) link
It's great that Sanders was against the Iraq war, it's a massive plus in my book as well. But it's not a policy achievement, his vote didn't have actual consequences. He didn't stop the war. It says nothing about his policy abilities, it just says something great about his views. But so does Clinton's health care reform attempts.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:02 (eight years ago) link
Of course the consequences of Clinton's support led us to war though.
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:05 (eight years ago) link
There's some truth to this. I respect her chops as a policy wonk, but I'm not sure her political skills have really been proven. Her record of electoral success is basically two easy NY Senate races. Bernie has a much more impressive record of winning competitive races (and as an Independent, which is not easy in American politics).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Bernie_Sanders
bernie sanders hasn't had to run a real election in 22 years and vermont is roughly comparable in population to portland oregon
― iatee, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:07 (eight years ago) link
― Frederik B, Friday, January 22, 2016 11:02 PM (9 minutes ago)
you realize that hypothetically as president he may have a slightly larger influence over these sorts of decisions
― k3vin k., Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:13 (eight years ago) link
― iatee, Friday, January 22, 2016 11:07 PM (6 minutes ago)
yet by virtually all accounts he's running a pretty great campaign so i guess it doesn't matter
― k3vin k., Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:14 (eight years ago) link
Sure, but what has that got to do with anything?Man, Sanders fans are the worst.
sure
― mookieproof, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:20 (eight years ago) link
― mookieproof
don't talk about my mom like that
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:22 (eight years ago) link
he's run a great campaign by making promises he can't keep, being the only alternative to the establishment and saying things that appeal to white primary voters w/ far from mainstream political views. so he's run 'a great campaign' just like trump has run 'a great campaign'.
― iatee, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:23 (eight years ago) link
i agree! how is hillary different
― mookieproof, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:24 (eight years ago) link
hillary isn't selling people single payer health care and free college tuition
― iatee, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:28 (eight years ago) link
school sucks don't go to class
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:30 (eight years ago) link
Let's return to going round and round about Trump and Cruz, shall we? This is worse than Christmas dinner
Please refer to the Warren snippet I posted above
― Iago Galdston, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:31 (eight years ago) link
Ouch, I posted my pentimenti
― Iago Galdston, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:32 (eight years ago) link
I predict nobody will be nominated or elected president
― pizza rolls are a food that exists (silby), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:35 (eight years ago) link
iateePosted: January 22, 2016 at 10:28:01 PMhillary isn't selling people single payer health care and free college tuition
Man both of those goals sure are terrible
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:36 (eight years ago) link
I'm looking for a democrat without ambition or hope, so your take really resonates with me.
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:37 (eight years ago) link
If Clinton just admitted she was going to capitulate right off the bat, that would save a bunch of people the time it took to get mad at Obama for not accomplishing as much as they hoped, so it would serve the schaudenfreude wing of the modern Democratic Party.
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:39 (eight years ago) link
ah yes we just need sufficient quantities of ambition and hope, that'll make all those bleak realities that exist in american politics disappear and then we can just press that free college button.
― iatee, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:43 (eight years ago) link
clinton would be better at playing w/ the gridlocked republican congress narrative
― rap is dad (it's a boy!), Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:44 (eight years ago) link