School me on SONOS and other home streaming systems

I have a multi-zone Sonos setup at home. Have used it for the last two years and I love it. My only issue is the iTunes library limit is something weird like 80K tracks.

The limit is 65,000 tracks. There's ways to get around that - installing a Subsonic server is one of them. You can also connect to Sonos speakers via DLNA - I use BubbleUPNP on my Android phone for just such a purpose, connected to my JRMC Media server. Setting up all this stuff isn't all that hard, actually.

I've got one Sonos Play:1 speaker (a gift) and I quite like it, though it's technically mono. The newer, more expensive stereo Play:5 has a line-in port which opens up other possibilities. The primary appeal of Sonos is IT JUST WORKS. You don't have to buy anything other than a speaker or two and use them via their app or another that supports DLNA. And the word on the street is their customer service is second to none.

I've also got a Chromecast Audio and find it a terrific value ($35) and an easy way to connect to regular speakers that have a line-out. You could add one to a Sonos Play:5 for the best of both worlds.

My setup is so hodge-podge that I never bother with playing something in multiple rooms. That's now how my life and house is configured anyway.

Having said all that, there are new Sonos competitors on the market. Samsung has multi-room speakers as does Denon. You can set up multiple Chomecast Audio's and sync them together.

If were starting from scratch I very well might just go with Sonos, in part because I like how they sound, it's dead simple to set up, and their app is quite clever in the way it can easily combine tracks from various sources.

This may well be a dumb question but can you plug Audiocast into the back of an amp, or does it need to go straight into the speakers?

Here are the various ways you can connect Chromecast Audio to an amp, speakers, or whatever:
https://support.google.com/chromecast/answer/6280276

Sonos looks good but is a little pricey for my budget. If I were setting up a new multi-room system on the cheap, using existing stereo systems, I'd probably go with Chromecast Audio. But those would not support Matt DC's requirement of being able to plug in an external hard drive rather than running a server.

Currently I use antique Squeezeboxes and the free Logitech Media Server software, which streams the contents of my iTunes library and (via a plug-in) Spotify. I love being able to synch audio throughout the house. Based on what I've read, I think I could get my server talking to Chromecast Audio devices without too much craziness ... I hope I won't have to test that for a while!

chromecast audio is frustrating in what you can use with it. on a pc, you can only stream browser tabs, not from stuff like itunes or spotify. you can basically only stream from paid mobile apps, etc. it's useful sometimes, but you can only do exactly what google wants you to do with their platform.

But on an Android phone you can stream all output, regardless of source, to a Chromecast Audio.

xp There are some ways to work around that, both in and outside the browser, but yes, it is frustrating.

In the browser, you could use the Spotify web player and stream that tab. There are some Chrome extensions that can play media files from your computer, and I guess those tabs could be streamed too, as a way to send things from your iTunes library to the Chromecast ... I doubt this would work with DRMed stuff.

So many devices now support streaming that it's hard to keep up with what they can do. The other day I replaced the Blu-Ray player on our home theater system and without my doing anything the new player discovered and connected to my local music server. It has a Spotify app too, so that is an option for streaming music that appeared in my living room more or less by accident.

okay, i knew you could stream from the regular android music player but didn't realize you could just do anything. lol obv i have an iphone.

Chromecast audio using the optical into a DAC is really great. CCA is the greatest value audio product in history

thanks for this thread, had been meaning to sort this shit out for ages and it made me think about properly - in a similar situation to Matt DC, but a little less worried about quality. On top of that, also need something the family can use - like I love thinking about clever cheap solutions, fiddling with connections, weird off-brand black boxes from tottenham court court road, but everyone else in the house will want something that just works, ie as-if-by-magic players that they can control, rather than me saying "it's quite simple. First, open terminal…"

Always dismissed Sonos before - expensive, a bit too single-company dependent, and multi-room was never a need… but shit it does look easy and clever, so… a Sonos 1 to start, get another down the line if it works & have stereo or second room, and maybe build from there. Get my library into Google Play, and down the line run a sonos connect into my old amp and speakers if it all seems to be working. In the meantime, a chromecast audio for them because it's cheap and interesting and why not.

Yeah both my wife and I have Android phones and will I think continue to for the foreseeable future, so the Chromecast Audio looks a pretty easy solution. Although getting my entire library into the cloud, while probably sensible in the long term, still feels like a massive ballache.

Are there really no options that involve just whacking a hard drive into the back of them? TV streaming boxes have been offering that functionality for years, with the ability to zip files round the network vi wifi.

Quality is an issue for me (this is a really good Linn system that we were amazingly lucky to get second-hand) so any option has to sound good on that kind of setup. Then again streaming any source to the Apple Express sounds good in that setup, and I doubt the Chromecast will be a big step down from that.

NAS + Sonos Connect might be the way to go, happy to pay a bit more for something robust in the longer-term. But that Marantz box in the first response does look tasty.

Really useful thread, thanks! I figured I was unlikely to be the only person wondering about this stuff.

I'm running a Chromecast Audio through optical to Musical Fidelity VDAC II into s Cambridge Audio amp and nice speakers. Even using Spotify it gets pretty close to vinyl and CD, there's still some harshness which I think midrange speakers that aren't so revealing might be better... But all said I spent $35 for the CCA and $150 off eBay for the DAC and it's great

One thing to point out, Chromecast Audio doesn't "stream" from your phone. It has its own broadband WiFi connection. Your phone just "points" the CCA towards what you want to play. That means it's not compressed like Bluetooth streaming and even better you can go to another app like YouTube or take a phone call and it won't affect the music. Even if you turn your phone off it will continue to play until the end of the current album or play list.

I'm sure Chromecast works best with Android devices, but I've had good luck using my iPhone and a regular, video-oriented Chromecast -- no problems using the iPhone to control Spotify or YouTube on the Chromecast.

also need something the family can use . . . everyone else in the house will want something that just works

This might actually be my favorite things about Sonos. My wife had just about given up on listening to music between her frustration with Airplay and the impracticality of CDs/vinyl on our main stereo with two kids under the age of 5 running about pressing any button within reach. Now she has music playing all day long and is rediscovering her love for forgotten bands, the kids are being exposed to so much more music, everyone is asking for more speakers throughout the house . . .

I got my parents into Sonos w/ Spotify. My mom is the kind of person who types GOOGLE.COM in the search bar on Google.com. She can work the Sonos from her phone.

Anyone here with experience replacing a Squeezebox 2/3/Touch with a Sonos Connect? I guess since it doesn't have a screen you need an iPad or something to control it?

I was also thinking about this recently. My hifi is very old and i haven't listened to any of my cds or vinyl in years. It's also difficult to find a space for it in my current living room.

How are the actually sonos speakers? I don't care sooo much about sound quality but I certainly don't want anything that sounds like a portable bluetooth speaker.

Or is it a better option to investigate a new standalone hifi and then get a sonos connect or similar?

Sonos app makes it unusable to me. True heads can't even listen to Youtube & my 64 gb itunes library never fully syncs. Currently use apple airplay thru vintage gear but it buffers so I'm interested in other options as well.

Thanks for the tips in this thread, I've been looking for a streaming device too. I have only one audio set in one room I would need to stream to, so I ended up ordering Chromecast Audio... However, upon looking at Google own streaming app, Google Play, it noticed that it transcodes all the FLAC into MP3s. And I know Plex does the same... Most of the music files on my computer are FLACs, and Chromecast itself supports that format, so are there any good music streaming apps that would stream FLACs to Chromecast without transcoding them?

I agree with ums that chromecast audio is THE best bargain on the market. But for multiroom purposes I think Sonos, HEOS or Bluesound are better (though more expensive) choices, in part because of the dedicated control app.

Sonos Connect is a great way to get started with streaming on your current stereo system, it's probably the most stable and developed system on the market. Heos Link and Bluesound Node 2 are good alternatives, they offer more connectivity (usb, optical input, bluetooth-adapter, subwoofer pre-out, triggers) and improved sound (24 bit support, better built-in DACs, better optical outputs).

If you're looking to replace you current amplifier, you'll need active speakers or streamer-amps. The stand alone speakers (like the Sonos Play 1) are impressive but can be a bit tiresome to listen to for very long - unless you're allergic to passive speakers I'd recommend the Sonos Connect Amp, Heos Amp or Bluesound Powernode 2 with a set of budget passive speakers for your main listening room. Price will be similar to a Play:5 or a stereo pair of Play:3s, sound is going to be a lot better.

No matter what system you choose, I think you'll experience improved functionality with a NAS - so if streaming your own collection of music files is important, I think that's a solid investment.

As a final note, I'll add that your streaming system is never going to function any better than your router - so if you're using the one supplied by your ISP, getting a proper router (~80$) can make all the difference.

No matter what system you choose, I think you'll experience improved functionality with a NAS - so if streaming your own collection of music files is important, I think that's a solid investment.

Sorry if I sound stupid, but what's a NAS and how do you acquire it?

and can i eat it?

NAS, Network Attached Server. dedicated file server running something like FreeNas or MediaVault.

NAS : network storage.
basically a big hard disc that you access via your home network.
they are not too pricey these days :

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing-accessories/data-storage/data-storage/wd-my-cloud-personal-cloud-storage-4-tb-21817659-pdt.html

i use the NAS/Sonos Connect setup, and its brilliant.
not fussed re speakers round the house, just needed to get my digital archive into my stereo, and figured this was the best option for my needs.
and yeah, the desktop app is very easy to use, and i love the way you can flip from digital radio, various streaming services (i got 12 months free deezer when i bought the sonos connect), and your local digital library without any trouble whatsoever.

Rather than full-blown NAS enclosure… can i kill 2 birds/1 stone: buy a new, stronger router with a USB port, plug a terabyte hard drive into that, then point Sonos and/or CCA towards that?

So basically it's an external hard drive that also works as a cloud? The price is pretty steep, but I guess it'd eventually pay itself back since you don't have to pay a monthly/yearly like with net-based cloud services...

One thing that seems a bit worrying, in order for it work you have to keep it and your modem on all the time, right? That seems like a bit of fire hazard, or am I overtly cautious?

(xpost)

yes, to keep your network up and running, then you do need to leave the router on.
i dont think this is a fire hazard !
re router+ USB : no idea, i would suspect it is possible, just depends on how the router maps the USB drive.
if you can access the USB drive as a standard external network drive, then i see no reason why you cant point Sonos to that location and pick up the digital files.

One thing that seems a bit worrying, in order for it work you have to keep it and your modem on all the time, right? That seems like a bit of fire hazard, or am I overtly cautious?

people turn off their modem/router???

One thing that seems a bit worrying, in order for it work you have to keep it and your modem on all the time, right? That seems like a bit of fire hazard, or am I overtly cautious?

You're being overly cautious. The equipment is designed to be on 24/7 and to just burst into flames would represent a major design flaw. Virtually every office building in the developed world has a server on constantly, if your concerns were realistic they'd be burning down all the time.

I don't think I've turned a router off except to reboot it in about 15 years.

Rather than full-blown NAS enclosure… can i kill 2 birds/1 stone: buy a new, stronger router with a USB port, plug a terabyte hard drive into that, then point Sonos and/or CCA towards that?

I think my BT Homehub might do this but I've never worked out how to actually set it up properly.

if you think about it there is also electricity CONSTANTLY running into the house. you can prove this by flipping a light switch on, there is no latency, i.e. the electricity is storing up behind the walls in an active state.

haha that is not how electricity works

Like even if any of that post made sense, "you can prove this by flipping a light switch on, there is no latency" is cartoon funny - the idea you could see the delay between your fingers flipping a switch and a light turning on if it wasn't "storing up behind the walls".

You're being overly cautious. The equipment is designed to be on 24/7 and to just burst into flames would represent a major design flaw. Virtually every office building in the developed world has a server on constantly, if your concerns were realistic they'd be burning down all the time.

Yeah, I get this, but those servers have inbuilt cooling, unlike my modem, which gets fairly hot if I keep it on for two days in a row. I assume this NAS has its own cooling system, though?

i acquired a sonos player last year and the sound is really good but

It ticks every one of your requirements except being able to plug in an external hard drive.

this was just a bit of a deal-breaker - i play all my music off an external HD and the speaker seemed to be requiring that i never switch my laptop off? i don't really see how that's remotely desirable.

Yeah I think this is why people are talking about servers/moving everything to the cloud. Always-on laptop is the scenario I want to avoid.

what about an always-on raspberry pi?

it really confused me when i got it because it was like...how on earth did sonos not take that into account when designing their weird system?

xp

I have the older version of the Marantz mentioned near the top of the thread.

I went for this because, after selling all my high-end gear in 2012 and going with a basic separates system (10yo Sony DVD player into 30yo Cyrus amp), and then giving those up too, I wanted to start from scratch with something good but simple. The sound quality is great (basically just the Marantz into Q-Acoustics monitors and Sennheiser headphones), but there are a few niggles with it dropping off my network with some regularity - so it can't find Spotify, or my iPhone / tablet app can't find the Marantz. CD playback was essential for me (again, it would be nice here if, seeing as it's a networked device, it could do a Gracenote-style lookup and not just say "11 tracks 55:12" like a dumb CD player), but there is a cheaper model without.

It also has a useless Last.fm mode (support for that was withdrawn before I bought mine), good FM/DAB and NAS/USB/Bluetooth/AirPlay connections (the last of which I use a lot when I can't be bothered navigating Spotify via the clunky Marantz app).

As an amp, it's perfectly fine - I route the TV and MD deck in via S/PDIF, and the turntable pre-amp via analogue. I think that's about all the connections taken up, mind.

it's tempting to think there's a NAS out there that you can dump your music onto, and feed your Spotify Premium details, and it would provide a unified search/playlist interface to? with RCA out?

I'm looking to reconfigure my home audio system, hopefully in a way that also integrates with my TV. My main music source is Spotify and my main TV platform is Roku. The essential apps for me on Roku are Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, Twitch, and Spotify. Unfortunately, the Roku Spotify app is pretty bad. It doesn't allow you to play from folders, only from individual playlists, and it doesn't support local files, only songs in Spotify's library. I've tried doing screen mirroring from my Android phone to Roku for Spotify, but Roku's screen mirroring is junk, it crashes a lot and pretty much disrupts my wi-fi.

I don't think SONOS is the answer to this, but I'm curious about Chromecast. My main reservations are the lack of Amazon and the concern that casting from my phone to my TV/stereo will cause similar wi-fi issues as the Roku.

I wonder if there are any players that would do the same as what the Marantz does, but also work as an bluray/net video player with an HDMI out and surround sound? I have 5.1 speaker set and I watch movies and play music through the same Yamaha A/V receiver... It feels pretty pointless to have separate systems for music and videos, but most audiophile players/receivers seem to be for audio only.

(xpost)

I have been looking at that Marantz thing for a while actually. If it had phono input I would have bought it already. But I've been in a state of indecision for a while now about whether to get that plus separate phono preamp OR vintage integrated amp plus bluetooth adapter (plus separate CD player I guess).

Oppo players might they are supposed to be great dacs

yeah it would be cool if Roku or Plex could just Handle It All, preferably through a unified search interface.

Again not to sound like I'm on the payroll but a Chromecast Audio & DAC would be preferrable to a DAC w Bluetooth adapter imo

I'm fairly clueless about these things... I have a Yamaha receiver with a supposedly good inbuilt DAC, if I plug the Chromecast Audio to the Yamaha via the optical S/PDIF (which it apparently has), would that be enough, or would I still need a separate DAC in between them?

Nope, no further DAC needed.

Thanks!

Press and hold on tracks to bring up menu is good

The app lost my speakers again. I went to the support chat bot and after some initial questions it wanted me to go through the same steps that the app recommends of turning off and on all the speakers and the router. 'fuck this' I typed'. 'Ok, redirecting!' said the bot and a live person appeared. They came up with some router settings to try, which I haven't done yet but it's a start!

What do you all think of the New Search function in the app?

Just had a look - as I only ever use it for searching spotify it's probably an improvement, switching tabs to search for songs/artists/albums was a pain.

Meh, it's fine but I like seeing a list of results aggregated by service.

You can still do that; there are now little buttons at the top to limit results by each service. I just wish it were faster!

Got me an open-box discount on one of the new Era 100s, which we're using to replace our OG Alexa. Sounds great!

Spotify generally seems better at finding the speakers than the app itself. Here's the advice they gave me, tailored for BT routers. Haven't actually tried any of the advanced stuff as it seemed to involve downgrading to older slower protocols.

Wireless Mode 2 (b/g/n) is recommended for station mode. BT's guide on this here.

- If is not possible to fix the wireless channel or to separate the 2.4Ghz and 5ghz Bands on the Smart Hub 2, you can perform a "rescan" against each of the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz bands, within "advanced" - >"wireless"

-Opt out of BT Web protect help service:BT Web Protect You can turn off BT Web Protect by logging in to My BT and scrolling down to ‘Manage my extras’ and then selecting Turn Off in the ‘BT Web Protect’ panel within the 'Your included extras' page. It will take up to two hours for your service to be removed.

- If you have association issues, it may be worth toggling UPnP off then on and rebooting the router ( Advanced → Firewall → Configuration tab → Upnp On/Off

- Worth Turning off "Smart Setup" - > from the router home page → this can cause devices to have to "login" before getting an internet connection - Not necessary

My biggest gripe now is, once I used to be able to say 'Hey google play autechre'. Then that changed and I had to say 'Hey google play autechre on sonos'. Now I have to say 'Hey google play autechre on spotify on sonos in the living room'!

can you not define macros for these things?

My biggest Sonos gripe is that rewind and fast forward doesn't work on the BBC Sounds Alexa skill - even though it announces that it's doing it, it just goes back to the start of the bloody show. It works fine on Echo devices. No idea if it's the BBC's fault or Sonos's.

Is this voice control of Sounds via Alexa on a Sonos speaker?

And what are you saying to it?

Yes, that's it, Tracer. Using Alexa integration on the Sonos.

I'm listening to the most recent edition of a show on demand then say "Alexa, ask BBC to fast forward 10 minutes" and it replies "Going forward 10 minutes" and then the show restarts from the beginning.

Same happens with resume function. I go back to a show and it says "Would you like to resume the episode of Cerys Matthews from Sunday 9th July" or whatever and I say yes and it just starts the show from the start.

Not the only one with this issue

https://en.community.sonos.com/amazon-alexa-and-sonos-229102/bbc-alexa-skill-6851039

That's v helpful, thanks :)

:)

I'm told it's either Amazon or Sonos at fault but Amazon are now aware...

Thank you!

To be honest I'm amazed that this elaborate fusion of iOS, Sonos, Amazon and fourth (fifth?) parties like the BBC or Spotify works at all. So many layers!

FWIW there is a Sonos "controller app" for BBC Sounds though you're probably aware of that..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/listening-on-a-smart-speaker/sonos

Thanks Tracer. I do have BBC Sounds added to the Sonos app but don't use it much as I find it easier just to use the BBC's own app and then Airplay it. But experimenting with it again, I've found that if I've started listening via Alexa, it does remember where I was if I resume via the Sonos app, and once I've resumed via that route, Alexa voice commands to rewind and FF magically do start working. Something about passing through the app seems to set the whole thing right. Not ideal but good to know until it's properly fixed.

New app coming: https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/23/24137502/sonos-new-app-announced

hope it can actually play music on my speakers without saying it can't find them, or claiming it is playing on them when it clearly isn't.

the description implies that sonos devices will now be controllable from the web (which was previously limited to your network), creating a much higher potential for somebody hacking into your system. and for what? so i can control music at home while i’m in the office?

it’d be better if they fixed the latency issues, speakers periodically getting lost and frequent forced updates (which included such “useful” functionality as having an inbox that only receives marketing messages).

xp +1

Thoughts?

Do not update. This is something rushed out with no quality control. Slow, sluggish, removes features, and not accessibility tested

They did not allow third parties to test fwiw

ugh

kind of glad i stuck to my S1 era device now.
at one time i was tempted to upgrade/replace my Connect with an S2 version, but upon investigation found that there was actually very little reason to make the switch.
subsequently, the S1 software now rarely gets an update, certainly nothing to do with functionality.
which suits my requirements just fine.

Good thread on the app. It's wild that a company that's dependent on return customers (building out a system with Sonos products) would fumble and piss them off this much.

So the forced update to my @Sonos app is easily the most mind-bogglingly terrible degradation of a previously beloved service I have experienced in my 59 years on planet Earth.

Basic functionality has simply been...removed. Want to edit your queue? Fuck you -- you can't!

— Tim Quirk (@tbquirk) May 9, 2024

the problem with no updating is that at some point it just stops working until you update.

so, what are good alternatives to sonos nowadays?

Depends what you're after - for all-in-one streaming smart speaker multiroom, I'm starting to think 'just don't do it, don't get trapped' - right now something more like a wiim mini running into a half-decent powered speaker is probably a more flexible alternative. Wiim seem to have a decent roadmap, deliver iterative improvements, good price for the hardware, app is multi-service (but I don't use it much - see next para).

Personally - I got out a 2-3 years ago & rebuilt a stereo system for the main room. Wiim pro for streaming but it's always just connecting via spotify or apple music or chromecast, not using the wiim app. Really solid, tho - like I really do not have to think about, it never seems to get confused.

The sonos speakers (3 s1s) sit around the house but tbh are mostly for my wife, who's used to them, used to using them from her phone and likes what she's used to.

The S1s still sound great - the room correction stuff built into them is really nice & tbh might probably make them outgun a powered speaker plus little wiim streamer. But I just don't want to be trapped with Sonos the company.

https://lyrion.org/

Logitech Media Server renamed and put together some easier documentation, from the look of it!

Worth a look if you are into playing your own collection of files... since even if you are just streaming from the cloud to your player(s), you need your server to be on.

Everyone uses the Material skin and not the ugliness displayed on the homepage.

thanks, both looks like promising options from a quick look!

new wiim ultra looks very impressive -

https://www.blog.wiimhome.com/post/unveiling-wiim-ultra-the-digital-hub-for-your-music

all these years and that $35 little Google Chromecast audio is still working for me

they don't make 'em like that any more!

forgot to turn off auto update, so let's see if it's fixed my main and critical gripe of saying it can't find any speakers when you open the app... and that's a nope.

reading about the wiim and now starting to regret the money i have punted sonos' way.

the missing "add to queue" option is very strange. a page says it's coming back in a future update to this update, but how can you push a version without it? I also miss the volume numbers for precisely setting the volume of sleep noise or music in the kids' room. Suppose I mostly use the spotify app anyhow.

there's some good discussion of alternatives to Sonos on this thread:

Maintaining a Digital Music Collection

There’s an option for “Save to Sonos Favorites” (for a playlist, track, or album); and when you try it, it just says “Something went wrong. Try again.”(??)

reading about the wiim and now starting to regret the money i have punted sonos' way.

I hear you - the trigger for rebuilding was wanting to bring my vinyl back to life and the sonos sunk cost thing pulled me towards a sonos amp or sonos port for a bit of my research but nah - they're still very respectable streaming speakers to have around the house but I'm happier out.

wow.the previous app would eventually pick up the speakers if you left it on for a bit or restarted a few times. the new one doesn't, and can't find any products if I try and set up a new system.

it's found them now. then loses and finds them again every time I reopen.

the sonos experience in a nutshell